Pendulum Picking & Escape Motion Issue (Three Questions + Videos)

Technique Critique
#26

What do you mean by “not working out”? If you have a specific example in mind, the best thing to do is post a clip. There are lots of recent examples of players saying things like “it all falls apart” where I look at the video and think it looks great. Efficient motion with a little sloppyness is a fine way to start.

In general, if you want to make a double escape motion, or mix and match escapes, and you want to do it with wrist motion, you need one of the four arm positions and grip pairings we’re talking about here. That’s the non-weeds answer, and why I think we should focus on the bigger picture rather than the edge cases and theoretical approaches that may or may not exist. If you’re using one of these setups already, then you just have to figure out how to get the motions working. Fast and smooth is always the first test for me, even if it’s sloppy.

#27

If it’s fast and smooth, then it’s right. If it’s not fast, then it’s wrong. I haven’t read through the whole thread and watched every video. If you can use this form and the motion is fast and smooth, then you have a single escape motion you can use.

Yes you can mix and match escapes. But you can’t use your “flexed” USX form for this mixed / double escape stuff. That form has a downward pickslant and a more vertical motion.

The big picture here is that when you want to mix and match escapes with wrist motion, you have to use one of four basic arm positions and grips. Here’s the Primer video where I demonstrate the three supinated options:

I think this is a cool topic because to me when you flip between these different positions you can really feel the equivalence, even though they can seem pretty different when you look at them. The fourth option is the pronated option like what Molly Tuttle uses, similar to what you’re using in your DSX video.

If you want to keep roughly the arm position in your USX video, you can use a middle finger grip and make a flatter motion. Or you can keep the grip you have in that video and use less supination with a flatter motion. In all cases, the motion is flatter and there is less appearance of pickslant. In general you don’t want a wrist flex in any of these options.

#28

Gotcha, but you can be downward pick-slanting while having a double escape correct? This just requires (for index finger grip) less supination with a flatter USX motion, and downstrokes that utilize wrist extension on downstroke string changes. So for example your angle pad index finger grip in the video you just posted would be capable of a mixed/double escape approach with downward pick-slanting. Forgive me if I’m repeating what you’re saying, just want to make sure I’m getting it clear :slight_smile:

And it is a very cool topic! I have been so to speak “tooling around with it” today.

I see, and I appreciate the help with you taking the time, hopefully you’re not at the end of your patience but if you happen to find some down time when you can look at this let me know what you think, this is the main USX video I was referring to. This is the fastest I could tremolo (if you can believe that), after everything you just said it may just be that I’m too supinated for this grip, but I’m curious what you see that could be wrong with my mechanics (perhaps the subtle climb after my rest-stroke like I mentioned above):

I appreciate it Troy :pray: thank you

#29

No. Double escape requires no pickslant. Using a pickslant will mess up the attack and feel unsmooth. The pick must be oriented 90 degrees to its path of motion, that’s the rule. And in a double escape motion, the pick is basically moving parallel to the strings at the moment of contact. So it’s already 90 degrees with no pickslant.

Angle pad grip does not create downward pickslanting. No grip does. The grip and the arm position together create the pick’s orientation. What I am saying in each of these cases is that when you match the grip and arm position correclty, you will have little to no pickslant. If you want to be a mixed escape player this is what you want. If you are Albert Lee, you have a very supinated arm position, so you need a three-finger grip to satisfy the 90 degree rule. That’s why he doesn’t have a pickslant when he does double escape.

If you use Albert’s same arm position but with an angle pad index finger grip, that would produce a downward pickslant and then you would have no choice but to use only USX motion. That is what you are doing in your USX video, and why this is a USX only approach. If you try to make a DBX motion with this form, your upstrokes will grab and it will feel unsmooth. And we know this because…

…we can see it. This is bouncy and not fast enough, so you already know this is not right. You can also see the upstrokes grabbing exactly as we would expect because you’re trying to do DBX type motion with a downward pickslant.

Again, try not to overthink this. If it’s not fast it’s not right! Thanks for filming and good work so far.

#30

Okay I feel maybe there’s some confusion because of the term. What I’m referring to is what you discuss in the Albert Lee video with how he changes strings after downstrokes while maintaining DWPS by use of extension (w/deviation on the upstroke “the double lift”). This is what I was calling a double escape, because it is an escape as in it’s not a trapped motion, but it’s not the usual motion of DBX that I feel you thought I meant. So that’s on me, I was seeing it as a “form” of double escape for downward pick-slanting, so for every time I have mentioned double escape in the last two posts, I was referring to string changes after downstrokes with DWPS by use of extension (ala Albert Lee). I thought I elaborated before but it probably got lost in the weeds :seedling:

So my questions above were regarding that, the question of efficiency regarding using angle pad index finger grip with some supination (like you demonstrate) but with a bit of a downward pick-slant, then using extension motion to change strings after downstrokes (Albert Lee). Now I won’t be as supinated as Albert, but the extension of the downstroke should still be an alternate muscle group if I have deviation going on in my upstrokes. I hope this is making sense :sweat_smile:

And that’s why I asked about (supinated DWPS) rest strokes vs. extension—I can use rest strokes if I’m playing the same string then add extension if I need it for downstroke string changes. This was the “mix” I was referring to, and asked whether it was efficient or not because I know Albert doesn’t do this, since every downstroke for him has extension it seems, even when he’s on the same string.

I love this, okay this is KEY for me what you just said, I’m not clear on what you mean but it sounds very close to what I feel. So I can understand, what do you mean exactly by the upstrokes grabbing because I’m trying to do a DBX motion with a DWPS?

Thanks very much Troy

#31

Except he doesn’t. That video is wrong. It’s obvious from looking at the closeup footage of Albert that he does not have a downward pickslant when he does double escape motion. Why did I say that, and did people believe it when they watched it? Because when you don’t know what you don’t know, you can convince yourself of almost anything, myself included. Let that be a lesson to us all. We’ll update that and remove that voiceover. Sorry for the confusion!

The bottom line here is you need a fast, smooth alternate picking motion and it really doesn’t matter what kind it is to start with. I don’t think more mechanics discussion is going to help you, so let’s set that aside for now.

Your DSX motion with pronation looks good. If you want to start with that, start with that and try some phrases. If you want to try another form, then get whatever grip you want to use, get whatever arm position you want to use, and try to make a motion that goes fast and is smooth. The USX video is not fast enough and is obviously bouncy so let’s apply some more trial and error until you’ve got something fluid.

This is your mission should you choose to accept it. This tape will self destruct in 10, 9, 8…

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#32

No worries man! Hey you provide so much value and I think it’s awesome that you make “mistakes” from time to time because that means you’re constantly exploring, and I always want to pick someone’s brain that is exploring. The Apollo rocket to the moon was off course over 90% of the way there, it got there with constant subtle course corrections and that’s how you grow with anything in life.

You’re generous with your time so thank you for that :pray:

Haha this made me laugh, yes I accept! That’s been my plan so the mission is happening, what I’m going to do now is do trial and error on my USX motion with DWPS, and make the path of the pick more linear (in and out of the strings) so it’s not bouncing. That’s the form I prefer and want to get that fluid, before getting into DBX motion down the road—maybe include some swiping for string changes, and I’ll report back after some time with some videos of it. You’re right it’s time to stop thinking for now and to start playing!

Thanks Troy!

#33

This is something I need to remind myself a lot. I know it in theory, but if I’m not careful the “grabby” feeling often crops up in tricky phrases like inside Gilberts, descending 4s starting on a downstroke, etc.

#34

I think there’s some leeway here, where the pick might not have to be 100% vertical, because edge picking can still take up some of the slack. But the idea that you’re going to have what looks like a Gypsy Jazz type downward pickslant but be using a double escape motion, that’s not a thing we’ve seen. So we need to be clearer on that. It only comes up in forum posts where people are trying to “do DWPS” but making the wrong motion, usually stringhopping but doing it with a pickslant.

Our instructional material is partly responsible for this, the old Albert Lee stuff probably needs a new edit to make this point clearer.

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#35

With a bit of a delay - here is the pure USX tab :slight_smile:

-------4-----4h5---4-5-7-etc.---
-4-5h7---5-7-----7--------------
 U D   U D U D   U D U D

And here is a pure DSX version, if you’ll ever decide to make use of your (already locked & loaded!) downstroke-escape powers:

-------4-----4h5---4-5-7-etc.---
-4-5h7---5-7-----7--------------
 D U   D U D U   D U D U

EDIT: notice how the legato notes will give you enough time to perform the “inefficient” string changes. On the other hand, all consecutive pickstrokes follow the appropriate single-escape rules.

#36

Thanks very much @tommo!

When you say this are you referring to, for example, the back-to-back upstrokes in the USX tab?

I noticed that the USX tab ends on a downstroke, so the repeat would start on an up-stroke, doesn’t this throw it off slightly as far as removing downstroke changes? Or is that still the purpose for the hammer-ons, to buy time for the downstroke string changes

I’m referring to the USX tab here

#37

True sorry! Amended so it starts U - D - see above :slight_smile:

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#38

Oh I see, ok cool!

And that one downstroke string change is what you meant about the legato giving you enough time for execution.

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