Pickslanting is dead. Long live pickslanting!

Playing Technique
#102

The motion path is Referred to by the DWPS or the UWPS. this tells the reader whether or not the pick escapes on the Upstroke or the Doenstroke. The grip/Arm Position, and the mechanic used is disclosed by whether you are Pronated or Supinated.

Pronated Deviation is a UWPS movement.
Supinated Deviation is a DWPS movement.

Mechanically these two are the same motion- they’re both Deviation. It’s the arm positioning that changes the slant of the trajectory.

Promoted Extension/Flexion is a DWPS movement.
Supinated Extension/Flexion is an UWPS movement.

There is only one wrist movement to create one of those 2 slanted trajectories when Pronated or Supinated.

If I say someone is doing Supinated DWPS then I know that immediately that they have to be using wrist deviation as from that arm position and grip of being Supinated and the trajectory path of DWPS that the wrist deviation is the only mechanic that provides that path.

In Andy’s case. His pick has a “Downward slant” but yet he is doing an UWPS motion. This is Supinated UWPS. This tells me that he is in a Supinated position (causing the visible downward slant of the pick) but using Extension/Flexion to create this motion path (the Reverse Dart Thrower motion) to create the UWPS trajectory instead of pure wrist deviation which would create a DWPS path.

#103

The motions that allow to escape after downstrokes while using DWPS have been described by CtC. In my understanding, you’d mainly have string hopping or crosspicking. As I tried (and still try!) to express earlier, it actually helps with visibility where you “know what to expect” when someone talks about, attempts to play or else, a D/U/TWPS phrase. When they want to talk about crosspicking, sweep/economy picking, they usually don’t use the term “pickslanting”, even though they also use pickslanting.

I would genuinely like to believe that it isn’t confusing; or at least, much less than going back on the definition of previously defined terms or introducing new terms to replace others. But I cannot speak for everyone.

#104

Just to super duper clarify, what I’m getting at here is that you are using the term “slant” to refer to the appearance of the pick, and also the path of the picking motion. We are discussing possibly not doing this, because using the same word, “slant”, for two different things, can possibly be confusing.

Of course, we can also keep doing this, but just clarify that there are two kinds of “slant”, and make it clear by explanation which one we are referring to at any given moment.

Do you you think this dual usage might be confusing?

#105

I am not using this dual meaning of the word slant. The DWPS or UWPS only refers to the motion path as to which Stroke escapes the plane of the strings during the linear path.

The appearance of the pick is affected by the arm position. I have “Downward slant” in quotation marks because the reason that it is in fact angled in that manner is because his arm is Supinated. The level of Supination or Pronation affects the appearance of the pick relative to the string in the saggital plane.

Saying someone is Supinated means I can tell what their pick is going to look like- it will be rolled forward with the back end lifting up. This is a visible downward incline. I am referring to this position as Supinated. The level of the downward slope corresponds to their level of supination.

If the person had a pronated psoition then the pick would have an increasing incline where.

#106

If anything, I think it’s more often true that the hand orientation for escaped upstrokes causes the slant than it is the slant causes the escape.

…and, I think, that was the a-ha moment for me, realizing in discussion with the board here that the slant was actually not the important part, it was the upstroke breaking the plane of the strings from above. Which, like, seems so obvious that in retrospect it’s hard to call it an a-ha moment, but the way the pickslanting mechanic is taught in the earlier videos is you start with the slant and then move on to escaped upstrokes (which makes sense from a deductive standpoint - yngwie’s obvious slant was what cued you into what he was doing) because it kind of follows the path of reasoning… but, as you’ve observed, it sort of puts the cart behind the horse because it’s definitely possible to slant without escaping, so instead focusing on the escaped upstroke and how to develop a mechanic that provides that is probably the fastest way to ensure your upstrokes really are escaping. Which, again, sounds silly to write out like that!

#107

Not really. To use your example, for a given supinated arm setup, the pick can look all sorts of ways depending on the grip. I can have a supinated arm with lots of visible pickslant. And I can have the exact same supinated arm setup, with the same amount of supination, with much less or even no visible “pickslant”. Even if most supinated setups have some amount of pickslant, I still need to demonstrate to the learner how to alter the pick grip from a lot of slant, to a little slant, and back again, as we did in the recent Crosspick broadcast. And I can’t see how I would do that without using the word “slant” to describe the pick’s orientation in space.

Ergo, we arrive inevitably at the use of the same word, “slant”, to describe a motion path and the pick’s visible orientation - up to and including cases where the pick appears to have no visible “slant” at all.

#108

I would say that trajectory is a better word go describe a motion path then. Perhaps Upward Trajectory and Downward trajectory. DWT and UWT

#109

Great Thread! I think it is a good idea to try and clarify the terminology since it doesn’t quite reflect the knowledge present in the forum. After all, terminology is the chunking of knowledge and we all know how important chunking is, right? :stuck_out_tongue:

IMO the words chosen should mirror the important aspects of the concepts and NOT how they have been discovered. This might seem obvious, but this is precisely the problem with the current DWPS or UWPS. (Also, my experience in theoretical physics tells me that “historically relevant names” for concepts are usually more confusing for the learner than “significant names”.)

In this regard, there have been many propositions like escaped upstrokes EUS and escaped downstrokes EDS which captures well the key ingredient to switching strings.

But what about the “linear path of the pick” used to generate a fast picking motion? Do we want the names of the picking motions to reflect that too? I am not sure, but it might be worth discussing as I am thinking of this as the key ingredient to generate a fast picking motion on a single string.

EDIT : after rewatching some crosspicking videos, the linear path seems unnecessary to achieve fast picking except maybe for “hyper” speed à la John Taylor/Rusty Cooley. Are you trying to rename the “linear” movements from Malmsteen, Di Meola et al or something more?

On a side note, I always thought the “linear” name to be a bit confusing when learning about picking motions as it is really “linear in one of the plane perpendicular to the strings” but generally circular in 3D. However, I have no better suggestion :confused:

I agree the marketing aspect is secondary. However, even if some of the concepts are not 100% clear and effective, to me what makes CtC so great is its unique approach. In my perspective, there are two main objectives to this platform. On the one hand, teaching in a very efficient way guitar picking and on the other studying and deepening our understanding of guitar picking. This second part is what makes CtC unique to me! I think guitar players recognize this very quickly when they stumble upon your videos and that’s good marketing!

I am one of the “intermediate players who never had a breakthough in their picking technique”. I watched youtube videos for 10+ years, yet never really found a satisfying explanation to guitar picking before I found Cracking the Code a few months ago! It is amazing how many “Ah-ha” moments I had watching CtC videos and reading on the forum. So many more than I had in the previous 10 years. Even if it took me some time to differentiate between “pickslanting orientation” and “pickslanting motion”, the unique approach really hooked me! I talk about CtC with all my musician friends now. Cheers and many thanks :slight_smile:

#110

Well I read the entire thread and after getting confused I think I get it now. Assuming I’m not confused then I like what you’re already doing, that being to state whether pronated/supinated and then the clock face analogy trajectory path, e.g. “supinated 902”.

EDIT: meant to say “supinated 902 DWPS”

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#111

Well the Supinated 9o2 is a crosspicking term. Only the 9 portion is DWPS- this is what Eric Johnson and Mike Stern use. The 2 portion is UWPS as it has the downstroke escape. This is what Andy Wood uses.

#112

Am i right if i say that the only way to pick in a supinated position with an uwps grip is to have a good amount of edge pick?

#113

I guess that depends on whether or not Wood is clearly an outlier in his technique. If so, it would be better to assign a special name to his technique, and simply leave the dwps/uwps designations be.

The terms seem to have caught on some, and to confuse the matter with a new set of acronyms would only take things backward.

Good teaching requires presenting large, complex ideas in simplistic, smaller ways. If your lexicon obfuscates rather than clarifies, it’s counter-productive.

#114

Do you you think this dual usage might be confusing?

No.

I think, the dual usage of slant still delivers a precise description of what’s going on grip and motion path wise.
We have to get used to the fact that picking is from now on two part: grip and motion path.

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#115

Yes so (again assuming I’m “getting this”) then Eric Johnson would be “Supinated, 909, DWPS”.

#116

What I’m getting at is that when Supinated there will always be an obtuse angle created between the strings and the pick. The grip may change the degree of this angle- but it will still remain obtuse and still have a visible slant. Thus the wrist motions will largely follow the same path despite the grip orientation of the player.

When pronated the angle will be acute.

Try to be pronated and have the angle between the pick be obtuse- it is simply not possible.

It is the angles between the string and the pick that allows the motions to follow the path that they do. The degree of the angle is largely controlled by the amount of Supination and Pronation.

The limiting factor for an escaped pickstroke is 90° (The pick is perpendicular to the string) where deviation is caught between both strings and Extension/Flexion go straight up and Dosn and don’t hit any strings at all, and 180° (Either from Supination or Pronation- where the pick is parallel to the string) where deviation goes straight in and out of the guitar body and Extension and Flexion is caught in between both strings.

#117

Actually I have to disagree with this statement (assuming I’m understanding what you are saying). After reading what you said I actually tried it and much to my surprise it is actually fairly easy to maintain a supinated position and change the pick grip to UWPS! I was then able to play chromatic ascending fours starting on an upstroke! Granted I’d imagine that this would be an unusually occurrence as it’s probably not the natural way a beginner would hold the pick whilst using a supinated position. but perhaps this does indicate that it is necessary to state whether supinated/pronated AND the pick grip, i.e. DWPS or UWPS and the pick path even when there is no cross picking occurring.

EDIT: Badly written - what I meant was "but perhaps this does indicate that it is necessary to state whether supinated/pronated AND the pick grip, i.e. DWPS or UWPS rather than inferring DWPS when supinated and UWPS when pronated. Plus agreed that the pick path perhaps need not be described when there is no cross picking but to keep the descriptions consistent I was meaning that the format would describe the arm position then the pick path and then the pick grip.

#118

This has been a super interesting thread to follow, I work as a guitar teacher and my input would only be this.

You are all very knowledgeable and have thought a lot about these subjects already. This is great but can be limiting when we are trying to figure out terms that can be accessible for beginners. Not criticism of any terms here, just a point for general consideration.

This is how a lot of academic fields become very difficult for outsiders to read, everybody has become used to the complicated terms and concepts, and add more difficult terms on top, which means, starting for scratch, it can often be quite a mountain to climb. Its the same for language in general apparently, smaller and more isolated cultures develop more difficult grammar, because they keep building of what is “obvious” to everything in the group. In a way it might be better to demonstrate the motion on instagram of youtube and ask people who are not on this forum what they’d call it, and see if you get any good alternatives.

Having tried to teach pickslanting to people who have no experience has convinced me that, if possible, the terms should connote what the action is trying to achieve. I’ve had many students who have only remember to turn the angle of the pick in a DWPS mode and continue to play as they have before, by not escaping on the up or downstroke, but now with a downward tiltet pick. So separating DWPS to two terms denoting pick angle and path seems like a very good idea, especially for beginners.

I’ve found it most useful to call the movements things relate to “clearing the strings on the upstrokes”, “getting out of the strings on upstrokes” or escaping the strings. This means you loose lot of details for but seems easier for the students to conceptualise and “get” the movement initially. The more you can reduce the amount of thinking to get to the meaning of the term the less accessible it becomes, “upstroke” is pretty obvious, “pronated” is not.

I think there will probably be some trade of if the terms should be super precise and easy for newcomers. But I may very well be wrong.

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#119

If pronated/supinated throws people, then “as if you are going to drop a ball straight down on the ground/as if someone is about to place something in the palm of your hand”

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#120

FWIW pronated vs supinated is very hard for me to grasp in the context of picking hand set-up, and I do understand what both terms mean. The problem I have, applied to arm set-up, is that it’s a relative thing (i.e. pronated/supinated with regards to the strings) and not in an absolute way. So, apart from the extreme cases (like Steve Morse, Gypsy Jazz players) watching some players who have a set up close to parallel gives me headaches to tell whether they definitely are pronated or supinated. For example Troy indicates that Molly Tuttle is pronated and Andy Wood supinated (IIRC), but it’s hard for me to really acknowledge that. When Andy Woods plays the Low A and E strings he looks pronated. When Molly goes strumming, and also on the higher strings, she looks kind of supinated (I get that it makes sense for strumming, but that’s a source of confusion anyway)

In an ideal world it wouldn’t matter much to know that X is supinated and Y is pronated. But the issue I see is that this arm set-up/inclination is getting more and more of an importance in the motion that are lately described on CtC, Hence if not well understood and clear for people it can be potentially misleading for the teaching directions.

#121

I’m a teacher as well, and I’d agree with this. I have a lot of visual analogies I use (along w/ a lot of crude drawings in students binders) to get them started w/ efficient pick movements. This is how I’d discovered Troy years and years ago. Pre-cracking the code, etc.

There are analogies from sports, particularly martial arts, that work really well getting students over the awkward hump of new technique. Basically, “wax on, wax off”. Give them a movement that really isn’t even related - superficially - to what needs to be learned/achieved.

I use a screwdriver analogy a lot. It rotates (deviation), but it can also be placed at a non-perpendicular angle (slant). I’ll have a student place the pick “flat” on a string, then have them “turn” the screwdriver and change the angle. This gives edge and lean in CtC speak (I think). Then I have them “punch through the bag”. That’s a boxing term meaning aim behind the point you’re trying to strike. In guitar/picking, what I have them do is rest strokes to the next string. Don’t even think about the plucked string, just “punching through” to the next string. All downstrokes at first. They will automatically clear the string on the upstroke, even students who are at very beginner level. Wax on, wax off. Later are the explanations.

Regarding the terms in thread, or new terms. It seems that “supinated” is going to be 902, and “pronated” is going to be “3010” (sorry if the 2nd isn’t exactly right). Another boxing analogy is that there are two stances: orthodox and “southpaw”. They are functionally equivalent, but mirror images. I’d think of supinated as “orthodox”, and pronated as “southpaw”. I understand what Troy is getting at when referring to the amount/degree of slant, but also agree w/ Mmason that this could be confusing at first.

This is really fascinating, and has gotten me thinking. The only point I can add right now is the idea of:

  • Supination = “orthodox”
  • Pronation = “southpaw”

because, in essence, these two terms (supinate/pronate) refer to “stances” on guitar. Players will utilize one or the other more often. And, of course, you can learn and execute BOTH.

I’d also add that incorporating general terms that are already in wide use, ie, a “downstroke” means towards the ground, etc.

lol, my 2 cents for now.

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