I’m getting into playing more in that technique than DWPS/USX lately because it seems more natural to me, so I was wondering, for licks that may normally start with a downstroke (say, descending 2NPS cascades), do you just get used to playing everything with the reverse picking direction and drill that into your skillset until it’s natural?
I’ve recently found some neat ‘turn arounds’ using DSX…like below. 3 notes on the first string only - so you can start the phrase on a down.
----10–13–10--------------------------
----------------------12–10--------------
----------------------------------12–10–
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I’ve come up with similar stuff, like doing 8-10-12 on the low E, then an even number of pickstrokes from there on out, like moving on to the A string from the 8-10-12 on the E and doing the Yngwie sixes (12-8-10-12-10-8) or a doubled triplet (8-10-12-8-10-12), and then keep repeating that moving to each subsequent string. I was just curious if this is kind of rare or do a lot of DSX players come up with strategies like these? Like, I wonder if MAB just never bothered to analyze his DSX this much, and just “pushed on through” and that’s how he (consciously or unconsciously) developed his swiping technique.
I figured out DSX pretty early and I couldn’t play any other way so I didn’t really have to get used to anything, it was the only thing I knew. In general if the picking technique is correct it kind of glues to the thing that you use it for very quickly, so you don’t have to really think about starting on an upstroke. Muscle memory saves smooth stuff really fast.
I see that the topic of translating non-DSX licks to DSX is brought up frequently on the forum, I’ll probably record a video demonstrating how to convert a lot of classic Yngwie/EJ licks in the near future.
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That would be great to see!
I’m really considering giving up trying to learn USX, it just doesn’t work for me at all. Johannes recommended in my post to start with an upstroke instead of a downstroke for even number notes/string patterns and I’m thinking about giving in and focusing on this instead of the USX stuff. This is a type of lick I’m struggling with and one of my favourite bands does these kind of stuff a lot, and it’s even more annoying that both guitarists are doing it on a “comfortable” 135 bpm-ish speed.
My lick is on 110 bpm as my lazy left hand can’t keep up with my right hand.
And that band I’m talking about …
I’m also trying to play this lick, the original is around 130-135 again. It feels much easier either adding an extra note before starting the pentatonic pattern or starting with an upstroke than doing the USX thing. I can’t do that on these tempos at all.
It’s in the solo of this song:
First, reminder that the advice we see most often from Troy is to take whatever motion is working for you and run with it.
That said, if you’ve been frustrated by USX but still have a reason you want to get it working: be sure you’ve tried experimenting with some of the different possible motion types for USX. It looks like your main DSX motion uses the elbow, and the kind of classic simple elbow motion that works for DSX doesn’t really work for USX.
You really don’t “do USX”. You do a joint motion. I can tell you right now from looking at the motion you’re using here in this clip, which is elbow motion, that repeating that isn’t going to create USX motion. It’s going to create DSX motion, which is what the elbow joint does. There is no point in putting any time into that at all. We already know the outcome.
The Santa Cruz guys are wrist and wrist-forearm, and those are different motions. Think of it like a native English speaker trying to learn Spanish. It’s a whole different language. Except there are no grammar books, and you can only figure it out through trial and error. That is unfortunately the sad state of things in physical motion learning. Until they invent neural implants. Is it worth your time to learn a whole new language when all you have to do is just start on an upstroke like Andy James? Probably not.
Now for the good news: all your clips are awesome. All this stuff about your hand being lazy and not keeping up, this isn’t actually happening. The playing in this clip is perfect. I feel bad for people watching this because it’s totally gaslighting them to hear you say the playing isn’t working and you’re going to give up, while you’re posting stuff of this quality. I know it’s not intentional! It’s the inner criticism that all guitarists have. However there is a difference between being insecure about making mistakes, and making no mistakes at all. Because no mistakes at all is what we’re seeing here in your video.
Thanks for posting all these great updates. As has been said, go with what is working. The Santa Cruz stuff is all even-numbered patterns. It can be played with any single escape motion. Nobody will know or care what pickstroke you start on.
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Thank you for your comment Troy. I didn’t mean to hijack the thread, this is just something I’m struggling with too, I posted various examples in my topic.
When I try to do USX stuff, I try with a completely different hand position and motion, I try to “dig” into the lower string on a downstroke playing a rest stroke and escape far away on the upstroke, exaggerating the motion, but when I try to speed it up, it falls apart, I think my hand tries to do DSX again with a helper motion on upstroke changes but I can’t maintain that after every 2nd note when it comes to pentatonic shapes.
I can’t wait for my magnet to arrive and get some feedback on that, I’d be really happy to make any progress with USX. Until it clicks, I’ll just start these patterns with an upstroke, looks like it’s better than nothing.
I don’t know what the reason is for hearing myself sloppy, but reading these comments from all these people on the forum gave me some hope and a huge boost in terms of speed in the last 3 weeks, I can’t tell how grateful I am for this, thank you.
P.s.: I didn’t mean I’m giving up playing the guitar, I mean I may give up trying the USX stuff. Sorry if I was not clear enough. I won’t ever give up playing, I made more progress in these few weeks than in 2,5 years in total in the past before my big break.
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Great idea! DSX player and Yngwie fan here!
That’s okay, you didn’t really hijack the thread…well, technically you did, but it’s interesting and informative to hear the issues that you’re having, as I’m struggling with a similar situation: my UWPS (same as DSX, correct?) is pretty good and clean, I’m just having to get used to a variety of string-changing techniques like economy picking, swiping, re-thinking the pickstrokes on classic licks, etc. But I wanted to try to get into doing DWPS as well, to make myself more versatile, but even after months of doing it, it still feels a bit “shaky” to me, and it may or may not go well on any given day, whereas I can switch back to my UWPS style and it’s “there” immediately. I watched one of the test videos and Troy mentioned that his philosophy is basically stick with what feels natural (so simple…but that was a bit of a lightbulb moment for me), so I thought maybe I should just work on my problem spots with my UWPS/DSX and not worry about spending precious spare time trying to learn DWPS/USX.
And btw, your “issues” are more in your head than anything, I think. Those licks sound great!
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My primary picking motion is DSX too and having the same struggles as you have, that’s why I posted those videos. I decided to reverse the picking and I can play these type of licks on a decent speed at least. When I start with a downstroke, there’s so much wiggling and the tempo is much slower. I’ve been trying DWPS since I picked up the guitar again and had no luck with that.
Vinnie Moore and Andy James are two monster players that I look up to and I’ve read that they both use DSX, so I’m curious if they (and any other well-known DSX pickers) use the exact same techniques, like starting on upstrokes instead of down, and if they came to that on their own. Andy James has done several videos for Lick Library so it’s much easier to analyze his stuff, but I can’t recall him ever putting his DSX technique out there when explaining licks, he always seems to break it all down by way of pure alternate picking (i.e., always starting with a downstroke). It would be awesome if Troy could ever get one of these two guys on CtC.
I’ve seen many people mentioning on the forum that Andy James starts these licks with an upstroke.
He is telling it himself too:
I love his playing, listened to his stuff a lot before picking up the guitar and knowing anything about picking technique. Seeing outhers out there makes me feel less lonely.
I’ve also found a topic here talking about this:
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Awesome, thanks for that, I haven’t seen it!
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