Are you getting a magnet? It’d be super cool to see some of your stuff from those angles.
2 Likes
Awesome playing!
It does not look dart-thrower to me. That would produce a more USX trajectory, but this looks like DSX to me.
But it doesn’t really matter since the results are awesome and you seem good at instinctively choosing the right picking patterns for your motions 
2 Likes
I am not using a magnet though I plan on ordering one whenever they are generally available outside of the original batch, strategically placing a phone mount near the fretboard and I think that’s also impacting my form a bit as well - but here’s an attempt at comparing what I thought was pronated form and what I thought was my lightly supinated form.
Each video is full speed followed by 1/3 speed
The second one feels like more effort than the first
Originally it bothered me that I instinctively have an economy escape for outside changes, now it seems like something to lean into more. It seems like it doesn’t matter which primary escape mechanic I use, I’ll throw in a double upstroke on DSX just like I’ll throw in a double down stroke I’m USX without really realizing it or planning anything out.
3 Likes
@tommo But wait - Troy explains 1003/DT at 46:00 in with the thumb heel anchored on the string, this seems like a DSX motion even more so than 902, 10’ would stick even further out from the strings on a down stroke than 9’
Also I want to point out you can still see the inside of Troy’s forearm in some of these, because of the filming angle - the distinguishing characteristic is that looking down at the forearm, the exterior of it slopes away from the body of the guitar. Mine does this when I’m playing in the form I used for the original video.
For sure I could be wrong! I’ll take another look tomorrow
1 Like
I think the second set of videos it’s a bit easier to see the outside of my forearm is pronated than in the first angle - still not ideal but you can kind of get a sense of it in the background
Last thought before going to sleep: apart from the specific joint motion, were you expecting primary dsx or usx? You could test either with some good old 2nps on two adjacent strings starting first on up and then on down.
1 Like
I was expecting primary DSX, which is what I think I’m getting in those videos, the portion that was pointed out as economy was descending which also implies it’s not USX.
You know what’s crazy is I never went and listened to Chris Poland closely outside of some of his megadeth solos before this comment, and that’s a shame because he sounds friggin awesome.
2 Likes
Aha, I see the source of confusion!
By imagining throwing an imaginary dart (or a real one but be careful*), dart-thrower should be something like 10(upstroke) - 4(downstroke). So, even in a mildly pronated setup this should give rise to a USX picking motion.
the 10-3 you are referring to, in a pronated setup, is a double-escaped pickstroke where the upstroke is 10(dart-thrower) and the downstroke is approx. 3 (pure deviation, which would give escaped downstroke if you are pronated).
Hence, if you are doing DSX here the motion is probably not dart-thrower (or at least not all the way).
Another way to read this: I’m envious of your awesome playing here, so the only thing I can critique is: “it’s not the one you think! disqualified! 
”
*CTC does not accept responsibility for where you throw your darts!
2 Likes
At least with my wrist, it’s more vertical than that. More like 10:30 to 4:30 or even 11 to 5.
1 Like
You’re right I might be underestimating the angle! Also in terms of what Shawn was (probably) doing. Troy has developed the hypothesis that more “vertical” wrist motions may be slightly faster (e.g. “steep” versions of DT and RDT). Those 250bpm vids he made back then are indeed with a pretty vertical (=closer to 12-6) motion.
1 Like
I’ve been wondering if the more vertical DT and RDT paths (like the diagonals of “x” vs. those of “×”) having greater efficiency is because those paths more naturally conform to the paths described by the antagonist groups.
This might get lost completely, but if we imagine the forearm bones as
“○○”
in the clock reference position, we can see that
“○x○”
fits together more compactly than
“○×○”
meaning that the more vertical diagonal paths would allow for less obstruction by the forearm bones. It would also explain why the horizontal 9 to 3 feels so much more awkward for most people than the totally vertical 12 to 6. Range of motion for 9 to 3 is naturally more impeded by the positions of the forearm bones.
In producing the horizontal path, more of the muscular exertion of each muscle in each group (ulnar vs radial) is spent cancelling the vertical force component applied by the other muscle in the same group than in producing the horizontal force component. In producing the fully vertical path, more of the muscular exertion of each muscle in both groups (flexor vs extensor) is spent producing the vertical force component than cancelling the horizontal force component of the muscle in the same group.
Obviously this is just a hypothesis, but it seems reasonable and consistent with observation to me.
EDIT: Another plausible explanation why the pure horizontal is more strenuous for most than the pure vertical is that the pure horizontal requires that extensor carpi ulnaris (ECU), which is the weakest of the carpi group, to pull against flexor carpi ulnaris (FCU), which is the strongest. Meaning there are greater imbalances in the muscled paired in 9 to 3 than in 12 to 6.
4 Likes
I appreciate the time describing all of that.
In the interest of having the right vocabulary to describe what I’m doing - I’ll just point out that in the Crosspicking with the Wrist video at 46 minutes in - Troy seems to be describing 1003 as Dart Thrower movement and talking about Grier and Tuttle as having Dart Thrower movement, then clock facing it as 1003 and saying the downstroke is pure deviation.
As a side note - I notice watching around 38:30 in that video, Grier looks like he has a very small amount of extension on the downstroke and is less pronated than Tuttle, Which seems like is closer to 1004 if I’m seeing what I think I’m seeing.
EDIT: Also, when I talk about my primary motion relative to this, 903 (I think) would be the wrist deviation only version of this that might count as primary - the upstroke escape is an added motion. When I’m going at the speeds above, I’m incorporating some economy on outside descending string changes because it’s trapped on upstrokes.
1 Like
Yeah I think we are saying the same thing 
Essentially only half of the pronated “1003” motion is dart thrower (the upstroke). The other half is closer to pure deviation.
“Dart thrower all the way” would be more like 1004 or even steeper like 11-5, like Tom Gilroy pointed out
Ha. Sometimes my density amazes even myself. That’s so obvious when you say it like that, but whenever I hear “Dart Thrower” I always think of a move where the wrist is pushing downward (like the part of the movement that actually launches the dart). I don’t think I can do a pure DT motion. But the DBX form that Troy says I can do the best is the Tuttle/Grier. So I guess I can do that “half” of a DT motion It’s also possible that I’m not thinking vertically enough when I try the pure DT.
These curved movements are a little tricky because they are either “half” DSX (i.e. RDT) or “half” USX (i.e. DT). It’s an important distinction because I think so much of the frustration we’ve seen in people trying to do DBX motions stems from them actually trying to make the movement curve. It sort of takes care of itself when you do it correctly.
Well it’s words that are helpful to conceptualise after the fact. But your recent progress demonstrates that you understood perfectly well how to implement these things in practice
Don’t worry, as soon as a clock face or throwing darts is mentioned, my brain implodes
1 Like
Well that’s the funny thing, the clock face makes total sense to me. I’ve seen others get confused with it, not understanding that the clock rotates with the player’s wrist.
I think where I get tripped up is identifying actual playing visual cues (in others and my own). In my own playing, even translating what I think I am seeing and associating it with what muscles/joints to activate.
I could be wrong, but I think a lot of these clockface observations Troy’s made are just that - observations. The subtleties of things like DBX or even helper motions aren’t necessarily things we need to try doing and matching up with the clock, just what to look for and how it all works.
3 Likes
I’ve no doubt that it makes perfect sense, I’m just woeful with that sort of visualisation for some reason!