So how does A.O. do it?!?!

[cmcgee11235]

I would think the approaches would be somewhat similar up to a point - Troy is reverse engineering the mechanics of players by observation. Anton claims he has, or has been taught, enough relevant sports medicine knowledge to observe a player and guide them to a stable picking technique from first principles.

The one-on-one critique/homework approach is what seems appealing to me, joining the club and getting personalized feedback. I’m strongly considering doing that if there’s a way to in light of the payment issues - although I really want to see where my picking technique can get without plateauing first by using the 902 approach along with maybe 802+swiping or some other escape mechanic on very fast runs.

If I can get to where I want without the classes, it would still be interesting to see how much further instruction could take me if I follow it closely. The only downside is, anything I figure out here - I can share freely, but I wouldn’t want to share anything crucial that might impact Anton’s income after paying for lessons.

[joebegly]

@cmcgee11235

Really? Didn’t think of that - but surely he could accept BTC or something

Yes, really He made no mention of an alternative but told me he’d put me on a waiting list and if and when stuff gets lifted, he’ll let me know.

@cmcgee11235

I really want to see where my picking technique can get without plateauing first by using the 902 approach along with maybe 802+swiping or some other escape mechanic on very fast runs.

Yeah you’re making great progress.

[cmcgee11235]

So a number of thoughts on Anton’s approach and potential things to practice here.

First - for 3 NPS alternate picking - there are 4 basic patterns that come from 2 parameters

ASC/DESC direction (ascending or descending), and starting Up/Down stroke. So we get 4 six note patterns varying each parameter. However, we aren’t maintaining exact form since we’re anchored so we have to consider the following.

Anchoring the palm at a fixed point

This gives a consistent reference point - Anton’s student here talks about choosing the correct height of the hand. Cross referencing Anton’s other video with a student, that would indicate that I was roughly correct in saying we balance the end of the Ulna near the top of the bridge where the strings emerge. I think the stable point is actually touching the tip of the ulna to the top of the bridge and resting the forearm on the body of the bridge.

Why so specific?

If you rest on the front of the bridge, you won’t have as much forearm stability (my arm tries to pronate more) and you won’t be able to clear the lowest strings with respect to muting, which would contradict one of Anton’s points in his video as far as having full control of muting.

Because you are anchored - this means your form will tend to alter moving up and down the fretboard - there are 6 (or in my case 7) strings. The number of vertical positions to play a six note, 2 string pattern = 6 -1 = 5.

This gives a total of 5x4 = 20 patterns to verify are consistent.

In addition, we are looking for muting, so double that for 40 patterns to verify - muted and unmuted. Certainly a lot of patterns, but a very finite number that will cover all transitions of 3 NPS alternate picking.

To verify the positioning is correct - you should be able to play all of these positions and variations with and without muting. Importantly - you will need a DBX motion to play all of the base 4 patterns. I don’t know 100% what Anton’s escape techniques are - but following the principle of using one muscle for one job as literally as possible, we can still use wrist extension - but only on string changes. So, potentially - if you develop escapes by practicing the above 4 basic patterns with the escape mechanic in play (wrist extension or flexion but only introduced on string changes) you would be adding a single muscle on either downstroke escape if you’re primary USX or upstroke escape if you’re primary DSX, rather than on every upstroke and downstroke. This should be significantly more efficient than maintaining 902 the whole time and you can see in the videos he does not do that.

Pick Grip Construction (supplied by student in this video)

• The pick is no thinner than .8 MM
• The pick is perpendicular to the thumb
• The less fleshy portion towards the tip of the thumb pad or towards the side of the thumb can be used
• The pick is against the DIP joint of the index finger
• The DIP joint of the middle finger reinforces the DIP joint of the index

Anton starts his students out on the G string, playing with strong picking and dynamics, and pushing through the string. This should be mastered on the G string then transferred to heavier strings.

To accomplish this, he uses the above pick grip approach, where the pick is stable and is pinched between hard surfaces while being ergonomic.

So perhaps, practicing the 4 six note patterns, using 802 with 902 for escapes on downstroke, and starting on the G/B strings then progressing, would be a valid approach to this once you have a stable pick grip.

@Tom_Gilroy

[joebegly]

Great post @cmcgee11235

@cmcgee11235

following the principle of using one muscle for one job as literally as possible, we can still use wrist extension - but only on string changes

I have been talking with @carranoj25 a little offline about Anton. We’ve discussed the video you linked that Anton’s student posted on YouTube. @carranoj25 found an interesting tidbit in the comments:

Pretty interesting and I’ve got to say, there does appear to be a good amount of rotation in some of Anton’s playing. Particularly the second half of each arpeggio in his version of Tumeni Notes

Arpeggios From Hell (Steve Morse, Yngwie Malmsteen, Paul Gilbert, Nuno Bettencourt) - Part 1

If you slow that down to like 25% speed, it really does look like he’s “throwing” his forearm to rotate it.

[Tom_Gilroy]

@cmcgee11235

I don’t know 100% what Anton’s escape techniques are - but following the principle of using one muscle for one job as literally as possible, we can still use wrist extension - but only on string changes.

This isn’t quite right, I’ve mentioned this here before.

We don’t have a muscle which results in wrist extension without deviation. Our antagonist groups create the diagonal paths, dart-thrower (flexor carpi ulnaris and extensor carpi radialis/longus) and reverse dart-thrower (flexor carpi radialis and extensor carpi ulnaris).

@cmcgee11235

• The pick is against the DIP joint of the index finger
• The DIP joint of the middle finger reinforces the DIP joint of the index

Interestingly, if we want a tight hold on the pick, there’s really no reason not to reinforce the DIP of the index finger with the DIP of the middle finger. Flexion at the DIP joints is caused by flexor digitorum profundus, which is a mass action muscle. We can’t activate flexion at a DIP for any individual finger. However, the innervation is interesting. The lateral side (index and middle fingers) is innervated by a branch of the median nerve, while the medial side (ring and little fingers) is innervated by the ulnar nerve.

This means that if we flex the DIP of the index finger to form a tight hold, the lateral side of FDP is activated and there will unavoidably be flexion at the DIP of the middle finger, but we can avoid activating the medial side, so the DIPS of the ring and little fingers can remain loose.

Similarly, we could tightly flex the DIP of the little finger, creating unavoidable flexion at the DIP of the ring finger, but keeping the DIPs of the index and middle fingers loose. However, tight flexion of the DIPs of either the middle fingers seems to require activation of both sides of the muscle, meaning that we cannot tightly flex he DIP of either finger without creating strong flexion at every finger.

What all this means is that a tight grip with the index and thumb will necessarily activate the middle finger also. There’s really no reason not to reinforce with the middle finger when forming a tight grip because it’s going to be activated anyway.

[cmcgee11235]

@joebegly well, now that looks like the motorcycle grip - I found the follow up to the arpeggio lesson where he demonstrates how to play Get Out of My Yard and he clearly is using a combination of extension/flexion with forearm rotation when picking slowly, How to play arpeggios | Get Out Of My Yard, Malmsteen, Gilbert, Bettencourt | Part 2 - YouTube

@Tom_Gilroy to be a little more precise, I was saying that you only add one muscle to get extension from deviation, radial and ulnar deviation using a single muscle, and extension/ flexion each using two (if I understand it correctly from what I’m reading), but technically that would mean the additional muscle is the one with string changing responsibility, even though two are used in combination.

However, now I’m also thinking he is maybe tening towards motorcycle grip like Troy does here? Critique Troy's crosspicking!

I don’t recall if it was mentioned why or if motorcycle grip would be limited relative to wrist only DBX motions?

[Tom_Gilroy]

@cmcgee11235

@Tom_Gilroy to be a little more precise, I was saying that you only add one muscle to get extension from deviation, radial and ulnar deviation using a single muscle, and extension/ flexion each using two (if I understand it correctly from what I’m reading), but technically that would mean the additional muscle is the one with string changing responsibility, even though two are used in combination.

No, this isn’t quite right.

We don’t get ulnar and radial deviation from one antagonistic group and flexion and extension from another group. Each antagonistic group creates a diagonal path.

For example, if our primary picking motion is created by the antagonist group flexor carpi radialis and extensor carpi ulnaris, our base picking movement will be a reverse dart-thrower (802). We can’t not have a component of flexion and extension.

However, to turn that reverse dart-thrower (802) movement into the an effective crosspicking movement (902), we have to recruit the other antagonist group. The action of extensor carpi radialis reduces the amount of flexion on the upstroke giving radial devation without flexion.

Pure ulnar to radial deviation without any flexion/extension requires the engagement of both antagonist groups throughout the movement.

[carranoj25]

@cmcgee11235

This gives a consistent reference point - Anton’s student here talks about choosing the correct height of the hand. Cross referencing Anton’s other video with a student, that would indicate that I was roughly correct in saying we balance the end of the Ulna near the top of the bridge where the strings emerge. I think the stable point is actually touching the tip of the ulna to the top of the bridge and resting the forearm on the body of the bridge.

This is one thing i dont fully understand. For the student to pull/hold his hand higher, wouldnt this cause tension? He would have to activate muscles to hold his hand/arm higher. Unless the tension gets alleviated based on where the forearm rests on the bridge?

[joebegly]

@carranoj25

This is one thing i dont fully understand. For the student to pull/hold his hand higher, wouldnt this cause tension?

I think it’s a language barrier thing. I noticed in that video several times he (Anton’s student) said “hand” when I really think he meant “arm”.

[eric_divers]

Am Russian speaker. Can confirm this is likely.

[joebegly]

Actually yeah, here he mentions his understanding of anatomy:

How to Zakk Wylde 2 NOTES PER STRING pentatonics tutorial

EDIT: just for etiquette’s sake, I want to make sure it’s clear I’m not knocking the guy His english is excellent. In ways, probably better than mine, and english is my only language (though back in college I worked with a lot Mexican colleagues and I became semi-fluent in spanish. Pretty sure I’ve forgotten all that I learned since college was a LONG time ago for me lol)

[carranoj25]

Still though, wont it require more tension to hold your arm higher than where one would
Normally hold it

[Tom_Gilroy]

@carranoj25

This is one thing i dont fully understand. For the student to pull/hold his hand higher, wouldnt this cause tension?

The point, I think, is that the neutral point of your picking becomes the neutral position of your wrist.

Playing guitar is an active process, some tension is required. The aim should be to eliminate it where it isn’t necessary and find the minimum effective tension for each action, not to eliminate tension where it serves an important function.

[joebegly]

I think he mentioned that the shoulder did this, to access the low E string. To me it makes sense, because that is a totally different muscle group than the hands/wrist and it would happen only every so often. Also, it’s possible to pull the elbow straight back using the muscles in the back, like rowing move in the gym. The back is one of our strongest muscles so it would be trivial to use it for something like that. So that would be another option to help pull the arm up a little to access the low E string, all while not taxing any different muscles used for the wrist motion that’s driving our picking.

I think the whole system, from what I understand, is that you give each muscle group just one thing to do. Let the antagonistic muscles do their thing with a proper reverse dart thrower movement. Changing strings can be done with a slight forearm rotation. I’m sure I’m over simplifying it but it’s at least enough of an approach to try implementing on our own while we’re waiting for the opportunity to purchase the lectures or whole package or whatever.

[Andjoy]

Here’s a vid of the magnificat mandoline player Chris Thile talking about picking technique. This one helped me a lot!
There are similarities to what Anton is telling, like the support of the middle finger and the total relaxation of everything.

This sentence was my eyeopener: “ Your whole right side should be available for movement, from the first nockle of your index finger all the way to your shoulder.”

Since i try to be aware of that everytime i pick up the guitar and start picking things go much better.

Sheldon Online Academy:Chris Thile-Pick Hold

[cmcgee11235]

One thing with Anton is he says sweeping and economy picking don’t really have much in the way of dynamics - but it seems like he demonstrates some dynamics himself. Maybe he just means less dynamic control which is true but I wanted to point out that I think he’s actually improved my dynamics with sweeping because of his pick grip etc. allowing me a little more ability to think about digging in more/less in the strings through maybe the second half of a 5 string sweep or applying less pressure so it’s more glassy. Perhaps it’s just because I haven’t consciously thought as much about dynamics in my playing and it’s really getting me to consider it as a bigger aspect of it.

[cmcgee11235]

Is there any video of Anton capping out his one note per string runs? I’m curious what his max speed is on arpeggios he strictly picks.

[joebegly]

There is a spot in his latest video where he does 1nps 16ths @ 180 bpm. On a phone at the moment but later I will see if I can find a timestamp.

I don’t know if that is his max. He looks super relaxed in the clip…like he looks no matter what he plays lol

@guitarenthusiast do you have any insider info on his max tempo personal bests for 1nps stuff?

[cmcgee11235]

@joebegly I had come across this soundslice of @Troy on here a while ago as well

Troy Grady One-Note-Per-String Alternate Picking

Which indicates he at least in bursts (and maybe not totally clean) was hitting 190 BPM 16th notes. I’d be very curious to see if he’d made forward progress as a fair amount of time has passed since.

Would be very interesting getting some kind of data on the average physical limit of 1 note per string runs. Practically speaking - if it’s possible to hit the 12-13nps range with it reliably - which seems like maybe the case at least for some players, it would be a viable alternative to most sweeping runs (not a replacement, but I think there are a lot of players that want that alternate picked sound and evenness in runs they include sweeping and economy in, but it’s not feasible).

[joebegly]

Yeah hard data would be cool. I have seen that clip of Troy before where he hits 190, pretty impressive!

EDIT: lol I am even in the comment section of that soundslice. At least I making progress. I can get well above 190 now on one string (on the good days anyway)

The Anton clip I am referring to was a sustained passage of several measures. But I’m sure Troy could do that too.

I found some other old thread on here where @Tom_Gilroy mentioned that he himself, in his younger days, was doing Tumeni notes at 140 bpm sextuplets. He’s also mentioned on here (maybe this very thread???) that the anatomical potential of DBX is less than that of single escape.