This is certainly what I think/suspect, and I used a similar Paul Gilbert example recently. It’s one of the reasons I think using certain groups of visual queues to copy this isn’t always so successful. Tom may disagree though.
Yes, I imagine slight variation is often required. I wouldn’t expect that radical shifts in form are necessary for most people to adapt most methods for themselves. I would also expect variations in the specifics of our instruments would also lead to some slight variation.
It’s also possible that some particular methods just really aren’t feasible for everyone. My “Mode 3” (Shawn Lane style) grip facilitates a dart-thrower picking action, which is fast, even and accurate with a slight primary downward slant. Trying the same action from my “Mode 2” grip feels clunky and uneven. I find myself wanting to pronate more (like Molly Tuttle) or switch to reverse dart-thrower (like Andy Wood). Neither option allows for the same capabilities for upstroke escapes and ascending sweeps.
It’s possible that my ability to imitate Shawn’s picking method is entirely contingent on my ability to imitate his grip, and that grip may be very uncomfortable for others who don’t have a hitchhiker’s thumb.
Having watched more if Anton’s playing, he also has a wrist based crosspicking movement which he uses when playing repeating outside string changes at medium tempos. It’s possible the greater supranation and the reduced extension in Anton’s form helps to facilitate this, or it may just be that he’s more consciously aware of being “neutral” than Paul, who more often locks into a DSX form and swipes on his upstrokes.
I’d agree to a point. I think trying to imitate a set of visual cues is limited. You could adopt a setup and grip which is very similar visually to a method you wish to imitate, but still not perform the appropriate movement. For example, when I first started using the reverse grip (Shawn Lane) style mode, I was still using the reverse dart-thrower action from my default form. This had some advantages over my default form, but it didn’t quite do what Shawn’s form did naturally.
The “two axes” is a conceptual explanation and still used (and useful) to help people understand the idea that the wrist can move in all directions. But in the interview we did with the researchers at HSS we discussed this explicitly and they point to the dart motions as being the ones they think the wrist evolved to do best. Though they found more dart thrower in everyday activities and were were unaware of how common reverse dart thrower (2:00) is in guitar playing.
I will say though that range of motion may matter here. I haven’t looked into the exact muscle action, it sounds like you have. But I suspect that there is some range of motion where antagonistic effects are minimized. Certain techniques we’ve filmed aren’t possible without deviation and large numbers of people don’t usually find their way to something unless it’s easy.
You once surmised it was elbow, but I’m pretty sure this is the real explanation and answers the question about how you get hyperpicking speeds with a USX path, no elbow, and no swiping. This occurred to me when I stumbled across stupid fast wrist speeds as a result of the pickguard tapping experiments last year. Anecdotally, a motion closer to 1:00 is the fastest for me, not the McLaughlin / Anton trajectory. And it’s not close. I’ve posted some clips of doing alternate at 250-260 sixteenths, which is just way, way absurdly faster than I can do with any other motion
Edit: I also posted one clip of doing this with a highly flexed Gypsy-style wrist, and again, 240-250 was very easy to reach. I think this is basically what Roy is doing. So “range of motion” is a tricky concept. Just because you see a body part in what looks like an unconventional position doesn’t mean it’s not ideal in some way.
I can’t do hyperpicking elbow but I’d like to because it always sounds so awesome. I don’t think it’s genetic but who knows. I like to believe it’s just a matter of figuring it out, since that has tended to be true so far.
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Interesting, I wasn’t sure if the forearm and wrist mechanic could move that quickly. Is that clip on the site?
What do you mean by trajectory? Same path relative to the strings? Because if you have two different arm positions creating the same path relative to the strings, then the motion is different.
First thing you have to ask yourself is if the arm positions really are different. They might just look that way based on the camera angle. If they are, and the motion paths relative to the strings are the same, then maybe you’re actually looking at a different “clock face” wrist motions.
One idea you and I have floated is that there is an anatomical difference where people with longer fingers or a certain type of long wrist shape can use a more supinated arm position but still have an index finger grip with a zero-degree pickslant. This is Paul’s geometry. There are also commenters here on the forum who have this geometry and we have seen their supinated arm positions in clips they’ve posted. Long-fingered, long-wristed people, you know who you are!
Me on the other hand I have short fingers. At any point beyond Andy Wood’s arm position, I can no longer reach the strings, and I need a three-finger / middle-finger grip to do so.
Ergo, the hypothesis here is this: Me using the middle finger grip and Paul Gilbert with an index grip, are actually the same (or similar) arm positions, and thus the same (or similar) joint motions.
Does this matter in actual practice? In the general sense no, not for teaching wrist technique. You choose one of the three forms, you play the phrases, I think that’s all it boils down to.
However if you want to ask more science-y questions about who can play faster, and if you think that motions closer to flextension might be somewhat faster due to less antagonism of whatever, then maybe Paul’s DSX motion would actually be faster for him since his arm position makes it closer 1:00 than 2:00. So two players, both who look “the same” to the casual observer, both with slightly supinated arms and index grips, both using “DSX motion”, but one of them is actually making a slightly different joint motion and is maybe a little faster as a result.
Again, just hypotheses. Probably not relevant to general teaching of things since the big-picture practical advice is still likely the same for everyone’s body type.
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It’s not forearm-wrist, it’s just wrist. It’s on Instagram but Instagram may have rendered many of last year’s posts unplayable due to what I think was a bug in their in-browser uploader that I used.
However in the interview with Rick Hollis we talked about this and I did some of the fast “all upstroke” thrash rhythms in this general speed ballpark. I get him to try to it. And you should try it too! It’s fun and cool. I’ll cue up the timestamp. Edit, sorry, wrong timestamp:
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Have you ever thought of trying to add in some form of resistance band device to the picking hand motions. Like how they use them to develop explosive power in sports? This is beyond music, and just trying to actually get certain hand motions to move faster.
No. My best guess is this is not relevant at all. I think this is all neurological speed, like video games, and nothing to do with muscular strength. Most people already have tons of speed. In the clip above I speak about this. This is not something I worked on, it’s just something I discovered I could do.
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But not many have reached speed of certain players which would bring in superior genetics of certain motions. Even if someone is just naturally good at something it can still mean superior genetics, something that not everyone can physically do with their own genetics. Or if we use the same exact motion, I might not be as fast, maybe close, but not as fast.
And I don’t want to turn this into some powerlifting weightlifting thing. But I mean we are talking extreme music techniques, these go beyond the norm in most realms of music.
No need to keep editing to clarify, I understand what you are asking. I gave you my best answer. I don’t think it matters. I think this is all neuro and choosing the right technique. The training is in the trial and error to figure out and refine the techniques, not gym style athletic training.
Like cranking on a screwdriver that instead of the normal force of the screw going into the wood, what if the screw slowly resisted more and more, the more you turn and as it turns back the resistance lessens.
Part of this statement is really at the heart of what I have been getting at lately with being a little careful about applying certain visual point references universally.
Well yes, but if you are trying to actually attain a speed of another player, and your genetics aren’t capable how do you get there to go beyond your own limit?
Well yes, but if you are trying to actually attain a speed of another player, and your genetics aren’t capable how do you get there to go beyond your own limit?
How do you know your genetics aren’t capable?
I am not saying they aren’t, but maybe we have to build upon something to shock the neurological system to get it to the point we want it to.
Because I look at the economy gypsy descending stuff, probably the reason its so easy and we can do it so fast is because gravity is carrying us on a vacation. You try to do that same thing descending, and unless you don’t alter slant, and even then i imagine these players arent as fast as descending players who can descend that gypsy slant due to they are simply fighting gravity, you are going to have to work harder.
And I am just trying to make light of this so it doesnt get heated with this picture.
Even in video games I am sure there are people who are just insanely fast at the button mashing compared to other players. I use to be a 2d fighting game fanatic that followed the pro players.
In Anton’s latest video he spends some time talking about antagonistic muscle interaction. How when it’s done properly, the muscles help each other out. He also mentions Guthrie’s technique having poor stamina due to the tension it carries and makes some indications it’s too deviated towards the radius. Maybe there is a sweet spot along the available range of motion where this all just works the way it’s supposed to, like a very springy movement where the effort is minimized. I could see that exact sweet spot varying slightly from person to person just due to anatomy. But this type of elastic action from each muscle group could account for Anton’s incredible control. He posted some examples in where he was crosspicking 16ths @ 180bpm and looked totally relaxed (i.e. maybe even more in the tank???). To me that’s amazing. Maybe I just don’t get out enough, but I thought, from what I’ve read on here, that crosspicking 16ths @ even 150 - 160 was pretty impressive. 180, with apparent ease is just…
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I strongly suspect gravity has nothing to do with this. It isn’t my field of expertise, but my guess would be that gypsy form enables the double whammy of dart-thrower plus forearm rotation for the powerful attack – and that powerful attack, as I understand it, is a big part of the reason for the gypsy form.
Think of it this way: how much does your hand weigh? 
Gypsy players have to play powerful upstrokes too, and if gravity had anything to do with it that would be impossible.
I see no problem with using the “two axes” for some explanations. However, I’ve personally found understanding the actions of the different muscles of the forearm and hand to be very helpful in the last few years. I wouldn’t want to give people the impression that all linear paths with the wrist are basically equivalent, or that the same results can be achieved with all of them.
I would agree.
To the best of my ability.
Absolutely, and I would imagine that even sub-optimal linear paths are probably plenty fast for most purposes, while not getting into hyperpicking territory. Crosspicking from the wrist isn’t slow, and it demonstrates well that coordinated action of the different antagonistic groups is possible at medium-fast speeds.
Yes, I think I was wrong about the elbow. It was my best guess at the time, but I’m very confident that the dart-thrower wrist action is the primary picking mechanic in Shawn’s playing. When I was experimenting with the elbow, I could occasionally catch lightning and hyperpick kinda sorta accurately, but I could never get it consistently and it never really fit the picking strategies for Shawn’s licks. When I started training the dart-thrower action, it quickly went from feeling awkward to being fast, even and accurate. Moreover, it’s pretty much available on demand and it naturally does what I wanted it to do (USX, downward slant, downstroke sweeps).
I still think there is the occasional use of the elbow in some of Shawn’s playing, but I am convinced the dart-thrower action is the real key.
This would require an unusual setup though, correct? For me, I’m honestly not sure how fast the dart-thrower action can really go. As far as I can tell, it keeps pace with my left hand when doing EDC lines, meaning it’s as fast as I would ever need it to be. I’m excited to film it when I get my magnets!
I bought one of Roy’s picks and experimented a bit with his form, I think you’re on point here. I felt the concessions I had to make in tone and muting to get it to work were far beyond what I would be comfortable with.
I’m so done with the genetic potential argument. It’s just an excuse not to keep trying.
I was “normal” fast as a teenager. I’m woobledybloop nonsense fast now. I just have more understanding about what my body can do fast and started to embrace that within my technique and my line construction.
Oh, fun fact. For the longest time I couldn’t do the Molly Tuttle style of crosspicking at all. I really struggled to add any extension on an upstroke, I think that’s the reason I never struggled with stringhopping. After training the dart-thrower action, I can do it decently well without having really practiced it much at all.
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