So why do you want to play fast(er)?

General Music Discussion
#21

It was part of the prep for Peabody entrance exams. I would have been competing against people who had been doing this stuff since they were like 8 years old. BTW I opted to not even apply lol ! I figured I’d gotten in too late and their tuition was crazy expensive and they wouldn’t give me any aid even though I had excellent grades in high school. I found a fairly local private college with a decent music department that actually cared about how hard I worked at my grades lol

Still, I think that foundation was good and it did teach me proper tone production. That aspect you’d quoted, yeah…I didn’t love that. Could it be why even to this day dynamics is one of my least favorite aspects of music??? I get annoyed when I have to turn it up so that I can hear all the quite parts only to have my eardrums blown out by the loud parts. For all my time in that world…I just don’t belong in the classical space I don’t think haha!

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#22

Hi Joe, well I must say I agree with everything you say here. To answer @Interestedoz question about whether classical guitar is more difficult than violin I can only offer an opinion: IMO modern classical guitar is overreaching in a bid to compete with established instruments. If I attend a keyboard or violin recital I assume there will be no obvious mistakes. And yet, I’ve never attended a technically perfect guitar performance.

My best analogy is this: if you attend the ballet, you fully expect no mistakes. But with figure-skating, mistakes are common; you can literally fall on the floor and get a near-perfect score, classical guitar is like that. I won’t mention names but I’ve seen many of the best classical guitarists and they all made serious mistakes live. OK I’ll break down and mention Elliot Fisk, he lives to shred but my god, listen to his rendition of Paganini’s Caprice 5, it’s unspeakable.

I used to dabble in piano and once learned a Bach piece which it turned out Segovia had recorded. When I looked at the sheet music I realized it would be more difficult for me to play on guitar than on piano, and I can’t play piano. That was it, I still play classical guitar but my days of taking on high-level pieces are over.

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#23

Your quote is so brilliant that I didn’t know if I should laugh or cry—but it is full of truth!

I think you’re right not just for the violin, but the bass and the cello as well.

Fretted instruments are ergonomic train wrecks to first order, and without CtC I would have never been able to understand even the fundamentals of the plectrum.

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#24

That sums it up right there. The most technically proficient classical guitarist in the universe, in terms of the music they can produce, is still likely inferior to a mediocre keyboard player lol! I love the timbre and expression capable on the classical guitar but the deck sure is stacked against us.

#25

This is true, but we mustn’t forget that the piano is a complex machine that needs a technician to regularly service it!

I often attempt piano music and other things on guitar, and I immediately try to split everything up into multiple tracks and have no interest in even attempting concurrency; I think that’s what makes classical guitar so insanely complex (not that I am a classical guitarist).

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#26

Ha!

I have a documentary on guitarist John Williams (who’s probably given at least some flawless live performances, and is also probably one of the few who can) and he mentioned something similar to this. He was reminiscing on his time studying with Segovia and had this sentiment that Segovia the man was greater than the music he played and inspired (standardized also). Williams wondered if things had been done differently where it was more of an ensemble type of instrumentation if the repertoire would have gone a different direction. But Segovia built it up as this instrument that should have its place right beside the piano where a soloist could perform works of quality. Honesty compels me to says that many great works on classical guitar are “missing” some pieces and it’s just because it’s physically impossible to flesh out the voicings the way a piano can do it. 2 guitars though…now we’re onto something. But history didn’t quite go that way and maybe it’s because of Segovia. He did a lot for the instrument, but did he also help stifle it? We’ll never know.

I guess all I *do *know is that in a parallel universe to Segovia was Augustin Barrios and all things considered, the world is a much better place with his classical guitar compositions in it. It’s some of my favorite music ever and I do still listen to it for enjoyment. If I am in one of my seasons where I go back to classical guitar, chances are I’m mucking my way through some Barrios. Unlike (even classics) things written by Tarrega or pieces adapted from other instruments, Barrios’ music was usually of the utmost compositional quality with excellent voice leading and form. Unfortunately, extremely difficult to play.

Now to try to get things back on topic, to why we want to play fast…

This is true. Why is this though??? I know part of it is because the repertoire just doesn’t have much fast scale playing in it. It’s not impossible though…Why can Paco de Lucia and Grisha Goryachev play north of 200bpm with what seems like ease? I’d love to know if there’s a secret sauce to fast picado much like Troy’s cracked with the various escape trajectories in plectrum playing. Most people can tap their index and middle finger pretty rapidly on a table and in theory that’s close to what’s happening with picado. I wonder if it’s something hiding in plain site like Yngwie’s USX mechanic…

#27

Flamenco music has less of a focus on tonal variety, which means that the technique can be more… rough and dirty than it is in classical guitar.

#28

I want to, and it’s fun. I want to feel like I can play anything I could ever want or imagine. It’s getting there, at least I know I can attain it now and the goal is in sight.

#29

thanks @joebegly and @Moje for the awesome replies re: classical guitar.

Joe, agree with @jptk in that it doesn’t sound like much fun! LOL I am fascinated by the sheer challenge of it though. Do you find it harder than trying to master electric to say Yngwie level?

Wow - this is a telling comment. Kind of sums up my suspicions on classical guitar. I have some knowledge of the classical world (though not a player) more a fan and my wife is an accomplished classical musician. I remember reading what the life of a professional solo pianist was like and it was sobering. Thanks again for great reply.

Sorry to derail this thread slightly - but it kind of dovetails into the overall topic of why we learn things - be it fast picking or classical technique.

#30

I think there is a distinction to make.

Some people want to play fast. Others want to be able to play fast.

One seems to want (or at least appears to want) to be able to show off. Y’know…the guys that can (or think they can) play Yngwie and Shawn Lane like its nothing…and can’t wait to show anyone within earshot.

I knew a guy like this in college. I’m trying to play some Blues and every time I start…he’d play some high-speed stuff over me to prove himself. He was (and acted like) a real dick.

A subset of these folks hangs out at Guitar Center playing the 3 or 4 licks they can blaze. Not unlike campers in a game of deathmatch. Terribly annoying.

For those that want to be capable of playing fast, it could be as simple as wanting to be able to play a certain song. For an Eric Johnson fan, Cliffs of Dover or maybe Rush and YYZ, or Yngwie and Black Star. I’ve seen players that can do that…but also seem to have no idea how to apply the ability anywhere else.

Still others just want the facility for when the mood strikes. To understand and have enough command to (generally) not be afraid to tackle songs and styles of interest.

This is WAY oversimplified, but hopefully you get the idea.

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#31

It’s hard to say because there are a different set of problems to solve. Huge level of respect for Yngwie and all those who play at his level (it’s why I’m here, after all) but once you get a good motion going and understand its implications, then nail hand sync…you’re sort of golden. Meaning, if someone could master Far Beyond the Sun, they could probably also play Black Star etc etc etc. In classical guitar each phrase (or even measure) of music can pose a unique challenge. Even several pieces by the same composer (e.g. Barrios, since he’s the only one I care about lol) feature very little “re-use”. The shapes and fingerings are different and the tempos vary substantially.

I guess what I’m trying to say is I feel like it’s more of a moving target. And that was the problem I never solved with classical music. I threw hours (years) at it. I could always play each phrase at my definition of flawless. Putting all the phrases together for a performance (or even private practicing)…I don’t think I ever made it through an entire piece of music without some little mistake. And it would never be the same mistake!!! Some days it was beat 1 of measure 30, others it was beat 2 of measure 8…or maybe once the “B” section came up I’d have a straight up memory lapse and not know what to play, freezing up. Moving target, highly frustrating. How does one solve problems that only occur randomly??? I’m certain I did something incorrectly in my practice though. And don’t get me wrong I gave decent recitals where mostly the flaws that would happen were things the audience probably didn’t notice. Still…ug. I like the ice skating analogy of @Moje lol!

Just writing all this though, and thinking about the topic of this thread (“why”???) I still just enjoy that instrument in my hands. There’s something wonderful about having nothing but your fingers and nails produce the warm resonant tones that come from the classical guitar. Even the “cheap” ones (mine was $2k purchased in the year 2000, a “student” model) are deeply resonant instruments that you can feel breathing with each note. There’s something really personal about that and almost addictive. It’s not unlike the rush I get when I nail a fast phrase on the electric and I’m locked in with bulletproof hand sync. So I think other than the challenge, we want to play fast (and for some of us, play classical lol) for the simple reason that “it’s cool” :slight_smile: It’s all about those endorphins!!!

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#32

I do wish I could play some finger style, or fingerpicking, but I’d not be able to tolerate that sort of learning curve, I’m not a very patient person haha

#33

I want to be as close to “limitless” as possible on the guitar. I’m not too bad with phrasing and creating melodic solos “on the fly” but clean speed is currently my Achilles heel. Also, I love Eric Johnson and Andy Timmons’ playing and how they find ways to tastefully include bursts of blinding speed in their stuff. I want to be able to do that.

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#34

Yep, well understood. In that case, just learn some fingerpicking stuff! :slight_smile: Something simple like Landslide or Dust in the Wind or Stairway to Heaven is a fine foot in the door. I’ve invested enough time into classical that I’ll never shelve it, but there’s a great world out there that opens up by just traditional fingerpicking. I absolutely don’t knock at all and I don’t mean to make it sound inferior to classical finger picking technique. It’s just “different”

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#35

I’d love to learn landslide actually! I must make that a goal over the next few months

#36

Stairway is easy. Even works fine with pick & fingers.

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#37

I’ll make a video for you sometime. It’s super easy even if someone has never done fingerpicking. Make it a “days” goal, not a “months” goal. You’re psyching yourself out before you’ve even started lol! That said there are some shortcuts in arpeggio type pieces like that and a lot of folks aren’t aware, which makes them work too hard on the chord changes.

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#38

That would be awesome thanks! I’ve had trouble trying to learn to fingerpick in the past. Always something I’ve wanted to be able to do!

#39

Super interesting discussion about classical guitar, its repertoire and comparison with the piano — thanks all!

In particular, I am always impressed at how many people can just sit at a piano and play some very nice- and “complete-” sounding stuff, while it’s very rare to find a guitar player that can play full arrangements that sound good — it’s usually an elite-level skill. And even then, I agree that the error rate feels higher than with other instruments (but then again, I’m highly trained at hearing the nuances of guitar playing, and not so much those of other instruments).

I personally don’t want to play “faster” per se, but I would like to become cleaner in everything I play, I would like things to feel easier and I would like to be more in control of the rhythm and tonal characteristics of all the sounds that I make. For example, I feel like vibrato, bending and the control of pinch harmonics are areas of my playing where I’m not very satisfied and that I should improve significantly.

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#40

Given the course of the discussion, I’ll just drop this here. One of my favorite guitar videos, classical or otherwise.

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