Some questions on both picking and fretting technique

[Gumgo]

Hi everyone!

I just finished making my way through the Pickslanting Primer (I haven’t gone through the riff clips at the end but I’ll do that soon) so I figured now would be a good time to get an initial critique. Although not this forum’s focus, I also have a number of fretting hand questions.

I’ve found a pronated DSX motion with UWPS feels most natural for me currently, similar to David Grier’s form. One thing that comes to mind is that David Grier plays on acoustic and none of the interviewed electric guitar players seemed to use this form - the closest is probably Andy Wood who appears to use a more neutral forearm angle. Are there any electric players on this forum that uses a pronated DSX motion, and are there any unique challenges this might present? One that comes to mind is secondary escape motion (something I’d like to eventually incorporate but I figure one thing at a time). It seems like more pronation might make a secondary USX motion more difficult due to the garage spikes problem.

Another weird quirk I notice in myself is that, due to the pronation, I seem to have gotten in the habit of naturally using my picking hand thumb to mute the adjacent string. This feels really convenient… perhaps too convenient, as I don’t recall it mentioned anywhere in the Pickslanting Primer which makes me suspicious. Is this a bad habit that could cause problems down the line? A google search only seems to reveal one guitarist who talks about muting with the thumb this way and… well, I won’t name any names but it’s someone I don’t particularly trust (very scam artisty vibes, perhaps you can guess who).

The last question I have on this topic is from The Tracking Mystery - how much arm vs. wrist movement is involved when moving between strings. I believe that video involved a more supinated USX motion, has anyone found that DSX involves more or less arm movement? Up to this point I’ve been using the approach “wrist is for picking strings, arm is for changing strings”, but after watching that video I feel like I should reevaluate. I definitely find myself hitting the wrong strings somewhat often on wider interval exercises such as octaves and 9ths and I wonder if a fundamental technique change could help with this.

Okay, enough talk, here’s a short video clip. I haven’t hit any major (picking hand) issues yet, but I would love to hear anyone’s feedback on anything I’m doing that looks problematic.

CTC

And the same thing from a more front-facing perspective (same video, 22 seconds in if the timestamp doesn’t work):

CTC

Okay, moving onto fretting hand. Yeah, in the video above, I played that really simple chromatic pattern because, well, my fretting hand just sucks and I can’t play anything “real” yet at a speed fast enough to even work on picking motion (as it is in the realm of “even an inefficient motion will work”). So please let me know if I’m doing something obviously horribly wrong in the following clips.

Here is me attempting to play… uh, I can’t remember what the name of this pattern is, but it’s 3NPS where the 2nd through 5th string are repeated so there are 6 notes to allow for consistent downward escape. (same video, 45 seconds in if the timestamp doesn’t work)

CTC

As you can see, it’s terribly messy, in particular descending… and this is only 90bpm. Looking back on my practice notes, I first started trying to speed up my left hand… gosh, almost a year ago, and made very little progress, consistently getting stuck around a depressing 80-90bpm 16th notes. My approach was the classic “start slow and increase the metronome only when you could play it perfectly”. Clearly that did not work. More recently I made a major breakthrough when I switched to practicing short bursts. After a month of practice I was able to play short sequences of 3-7 notes as fast as 140bpm, albeit inconsistently. This is much more promising, but now I’m running into a specific left hand issue that I’ve been trying to work on but haven’t found a great approach.

Specifically, when playing descending patterns (e.g. 4-3-1-4-3-1-4-3-1), I often can’t make my fingers lift quickly enough and it mutes the next note. Here’s a video of a few examples where you can hear badly muted notes: a repeating 4-3-1 pattern, a pinky trill, and an ascending/descending chromatic pattern at three different speeds which devolves into an utter disaster. And… these aren’t even remotely fast, they’re 80-100bpm 16th notes. (same video, 58 seconds in if the timestamp doesn’t work)

CTC

For the last month and a half I’ve been attempting to strengthen my left hand using repeating patterns 1-4-3-4, 1-4-2-4, 1-4-1-3, and 1-4-1-2. Additionally, two weeks ago I added 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 2-3, 2-4, 1-2-3, 1-2-4, 1-3-4, 2-3-4, 3-2-1, 4-2-1, 4-3-1, and 4-3-2. I’ve been doing each one for 1 minute each (trying not to overdo it and injure myself). The problem is, when I practice something, I try to focus on a specific aspect that I can improve, but it doesn’t feel like there’s anything I can really control here. “Lift your finger faster” is about as useful as “just play faster, dummy!”. As tommo wrote in another thread, don’t just repeat something 1000 times hoping for better results, and I agree.

Perhaps this is just a matter of building finger strength and muscle memory and I just need to keep at it, and if that’s the answer then I will happily accept it. I just don’t want to do what I did before and waste another year trying to speed up scales incrementally and getting nowhere. One idea I came upon is practicing legato with only hammer-ons (even descending) which is something I hadn’t seen before but seems potentially helpful.

If there’s anyone on this forum that had similar fretting hand struggles and was able to work through them, I’d be interested to hear what your journey involved. Did your fretting hand speed and control slowly increase over time (perhaps years) naturally? Was there something in particular you discovered that helped? Or… are people like me doomed because fretting hand potential has a neurological ceiling and mine just happens to be really low (I hope not and try to avoid thinking that way but sometimes negative thoughts creep in)? My impression (and I could absolutely be wrong!) from reading this forum and others is that people who can play fast were physically able to do it pretty much from the start and it was just a matter of muscle memory programming. That Shawn Lane clip that’s often posted - his advice about starting with speed simply feels physically impossible for me to do. I do wonder if there is something like the tapping test for fretting hand fingers.

Thanks for your time.

[Prlgmnr]

Try, rather than repeating 2-1, 2-1, 2-1 in an even and methodical fashion, doing a single pull off absolutely as fast as possible, aiming for a flam or a grace note rather than two really distinct notes (I like to think of it as a ‘blip’). Then once you can do one of these, try chaining two together, and then see if you can increase the length of the chain.

The point is not just to work UP from slow speed but also work DOWN from the fastest you can conceivably play two notes, which is actually simultaneously (this makes more sense in the context I came across it in the first place, piano trills where you’re obviously initiating each note with its own finger, but the general point still applies).

[RobertFlores]

Looks fine just keep practicing.

[BlackInMind]

Forgive me if I missed this detail, but regarding your left hand, how much legato practice do you do? It looked like every video example was picked. When I was a teenager I did the legato routine from John Petrucci’s Rock Discipline every day and I swear in a matter of what I think was only a few months I was hitting 16th notes at 240 bpm with a single string roll pattern (24212421 etc).

In my experience, fast right hand alone and fast left hand alone does not automatically equal the ability to synchronize the two, but if one hand is drastically under-developed you need to isolate it more.

Try this routine out for a few weeks and see if it helps you the way it did for me:

John Petrucci legato lesson 1

[Gumgo]

You are correct, all those examples were picked, as I’ve been working on my alternate picking recently. I periodically do legato exercises but I don’t believe I’ve ever done anything like a legato routine. That could be the missing piece!

240bpm 16th notes in a few months, that is insane! Honestly, my goal right now is a meager 120bpm so this gives me hope. If I can make it to 140bpm I’d be overjoyed, hah. I’ve heard Rock Discipline recommended numerous times so I’ll give it a try for a few months and see where it gets me. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Gumgo]

(Sorry for the double post, still getting used to this forum.)

@RobertFlores

Looks fine just keep practicing.

This actually made me feel quite a bit better, thanks for the words of encouragement.

@Prlgmnr

Try, rather than repeating 2-1, 2-1, 2-1 in an even and methodical fashion, doing a single pull off absolutely as fast as possible, aiming for a flam or a grace note rather than two really distinct notes (I like to think of it as a ‘blip’). Then once you can do one of these, try chaining two together, and then see if you can increase the length of the chain.

The point is not just to work UP from slow speed but also work DOWN from the fastest you can conceivably play two notes, which is actually simultaneously (this makes more sense in the context I came across it in the first place, piano trills where you’re obviously initiating each note with its own finger, but the general point still applies).

Interesting, that’s an approach I hadn’t considered. I’ll give it a try.

Here’s a related question I’ve been wondering about for a little while: suppose you’re playing 3-2-1 on the B string followed by 3p2 on the G string. Or even 3p2p1. When transitioning to the G string, would you place fingers 2 and 3 both immediately, or would you only place finger 2 right before executing the pull-off?

More generally, how early do you “prepare” the pull-off-target finger?

[joebegly]

@Gumgo

Here’s a related question I’ve been wondering about for a little while: suppose you’re playing 3-2-1 on the B string followed by 3p2 on the G string. Or even 3p2p1. When transitioning to the G string, would you place fingers 2 and 3 both immediately, or would you only place finger 2 right before executing the pull-off?

More generally, how early do you “prepare” the pull-off-target finger?

I think the answer is “It depends”. Classical guitarists usually pull straight down on their pull offs, with the lower note already fretted. So they would need both fingers planted, then they do the slur. Granted, their speeds are far below the shred stuff most of the people on this forum are going for. At extreme speeds, there isn’t always time to do this, depending on exactly which fingers are performing the slur. Plus, that can cause hand sync issues since it wouldn’t be consistent between hammer ons and pulloffs. That’s why some of the elite legato players do all hammers, even when descending. There is some discussion of all that here:

Holdsworth's All Hammer-on Legato

I don’t know if this goes in this place because I will talk about legato. Recently I’ve discovered that the smoothness of Allan Holdsworth’s legato was because he only used hammer-ons, I was like WTF, really? Can someone explain some of this technique? And post some exercise. I still don’t understand this technique.

[Gumgo]

@joebegly

I think the answer is “It depends”. Classical guitarists usually pull straight down on their pull offs, with the lower note already fretted. So they would need both fingers planted, then they do the slur. Granted, their speeds are far below the shred stuff most of the people on this forum are going for.

Makes sense. I’m decent at those types of pull-offs (where my finger is already planted). I’ve added “quick pull-offs” to my practice routine (e.g. you only have finger 4 on the string and you quickly plant finger 2 and immediately pull off finger 4) and I’m actually happy with the progress I’ve made on this so far.

That all-hammer legato technique though… that is crazy impressive. The technique makes sense, but the timing precision seems really challenging. Maybe I’ll try to tackle it eventually, if I can get my left hand more sorted out in general.

And on that topic,

@BlackInMind

Try this routine out for a few weeks and see if it helps you the way it did for me:

I’ve been doing this routine daily for two weeks now. I haven’t moved onto the scales yet, I’m just working on fragments 1-6 (and I’ve additionally added patterns for fingers 1-2-3), trying to play them each for two minutes, which I find quite difficult to do consistently. Here is a video of my struggles. I tried to choose the worst clips to demonstrate what I need to improve on.

CTC Legato

My findings so far:

• Great gains the first few days! But that’s to be expected. Now I’ve hit the long training plateau.
• As you can see, my timing absolutely SUCKS, especially for anything with fingers 1-3-4. For 1-2-4 patterns I could imagine that practicing a bunch will help me improve. 1-2-3 is more of a challenge, but it feels at least somewhat promising. But 1-3-4 feels so physically stunted that I legitimately don’t know if practice will even help. I’d love to prove myself wrong.
• I’ve found that the 4 note patterns (e.g. 3-4-3-1) are by far the hardest for me, much worse than ones like 4-1-3-4-3-1. I’m guessing that’s because it’s a less efficient cycle than the others (Efficient Digital Cycles). Or maybe it’s just me.
• I’ve realized that I don’t actually know how to properly practice improving timing because there’s nothing specific that I can focus on to do correctly - the correction is “better physical control” (which I can’t attack directly because… well, I lack the physical control). Perhaps the answer is to practice at a speed where you can just barely keep timing under control. However, in the past I’ve often found that this barrier is VERY difficult/impossible for me to ever actually break through (e.g. I was stuck playing scales at 90bpm for many months).

[BlackInMind]

Glad to hear it’s helped! I’ll give some pointers:

Don’t use a metronome and start with doing those first six fragments Petrucci shows for only one minute (as he recommends). Legato can be strenuous if you don’t have the finesse yet so less time is better at first.

Raw speed is best developed without a metronome. It’s as it’s been stated through CtC and from guitarists like Martin Miller, but in order to get faster you need to do it in small bits and trip over yourself and allow yourself to be sloppy. My experience with these legato chunks back in high school getting them really fast was like this. I was a bit stubborn and basically just tried to copy exactly what Petrucci was doing. He didn’t use a metronome in this section so I didn’t (lo and behold, I got insane at legato and tapping in my youth and always struggled with picking until Troy came along and made me realize why.)

Side story: in the interim, I had started playing death metal and had to get some raw speed in my right hand for all the tremolo picking riffs. And that developed much like my legato, I started out a hot mess trying to just go as fast as I could. Over time from doing it so much and having to do it on stage under pressure (while growling, too, cause I’m also the vocalist), I got better and more refined at it. No metronome necessary.

When I eventually did put a metronome to my legato I discovered my speeds were nuts but then the next challenge is getting it in time. So that’s what the metronome is good for.

So if you just want to get faster, my advice is turn the metronome off for a while, and just go as fast as you can on those six fragments for a minute at a clip, and allow the slop to happen. Over time, your muscles will realize how to do it with more finesse and you can slow down a little to clean up and develop more intricate passages and lines.

Basically metronome is your timing buddy. That’s it. It’s not speed drill buddy. You can use it to measure your speeds accurately, and help push speed that’s already there, but for simply developing raw speed, it’s not the best.

These days if my metronome is on, it’s to tighten up my playing at speeds I can already handle. It’s also really useful for helping to nail down your coordination and chunking at slow and moderate tempos so that when you do go fast it’s easier to follow those mile markers. And then I’ll use the metronome to push beyond for specific speed burst drills, but again, I already figured out how to go fast in general, and Ive done those drills without the metronome as well.

[joebegly]

@Gumgo

But 1-3-4 feels so physically stunted that I legitimately don’t know if practice will even help. I’d love to prove myself wrong.

I’ve seriously given up on this. I think I may have an injury because I’ve practiced finger independence for YEARS between ring and pinky. It’s still not good at all. My right had (which I never practice ring/pinky independence) has way better control between those 2 fingers.

In general, all this stuff that “good guitarists say we should do”, I step back and ask myself if anything I play or am interested in playing requires it. I’ve found very comfortable workarounds for any situations where repetitions of 1-3-4 would happen. There are a few wide stretch phrases I come across with a half step between the high notes…so 3-4 is my only option there. Typically though, there isn’t any repetition, just a quick passage that glosses over those notes, so all is well

Point is, I feel like I’m too old to play exercises. They have their place and I’ve definitely spent years with exercises. But where I am in my “hobby” career, I try to find passages of songs I’m interested in and loop those rather than work on finger combos I may or may not need. Eric Johnson only uses his pinky when he absolutely has to. When he does, I don’t recall him doing any awkward trilling between ring/pinky or 1-3-4-1-3-4 type stuff. It probably never occurred to him that he needed to practice this, because he probably just played the stuff he wanted to that sounded good to him

All that’s to say, exercises have a purpose. Just make sure the exercises you play will translate into the music you’re interested in playing.

That’s not in any way to poo poo on @BlackInMind’s (excellent !!!) advice. I just wanted to remind you to keep the big picture in mind. I’ve had spans in my playing where if someone asked me to play something on guitar, all I’d be able to show them was the different drills I’d been working on lol! We can get lost in exercises. The get that bad rap of being boring but I’ve always found them kinda fun. Still, second fiddle to actual music.

[Gumgo]

@BlackInMind

Don’t use a metronome and start with doing those first six fragments Petrucci shows for only one minute (as he recommends). Legato can be strenuous if you don’t have the finesse yet so less time is better at first.

I’ve generally been spending the first minute trying to go fast, and the second minute to try to work on timing. But good point, I should be careful to avoid injury.

@BlackInMind

Over time, your muscles will realize how to do it with more finesse and you can slow down a little to clean up and develop more intricate passages and lines.

How long did it take you to start feeling more comfortable with the motions? I don’t mean that in an impatient way (I hate asking questions that sound like “so… how long till I GET GOOD?”), I’m more wondering if your experience was “in a few weeks it started feeling natural” or “it finally fell into place after 6 months, you just have to have trust and stick with it”.

@joebegly

I’ve seriously given up on this. I think I may have an injury because I’ve practiced finger independence for YEARS between ring and pinky. It’s still not good at all. My right had (which I never practice ring/pinky independence) has way better control between those 2 fingers.

My right and left and seem to have about the same ability (at this point, my left is probably better just due to practice). That is to say: they both suck

@joebegly

I’ve found very comfortable workarounds for any situations where repetitions of 1-3-4 would happen.

Yeah, I kind of suspect that I’ll end up replacing 1-3-4 with 1-2-3 in most situations that require repetition, but at least initially I figure I should practice it for a while before ruling it out.

@joebegly

All that’s to say, exercises have a purpose. Just make sure the exercises you play will translate into the music you’re interested in playing.

Oh absolutely. I’ve definitely gotten sucked down the endless exercise hole in the past so now I’m making sure I always have a few songs I’m working on. These basic patterns (1-2-3, 1-2-4, etc.) just seem so fundamental that cleaning them up seems like it would be very helpful overall.

Here’s a short riff I’d like to eventually be able to play which, conveniently, uses the same 4-1-3-4-3-1 pattern (and variants) from Rock Discipline. It’s picked, not legato, and waaaaay faster than anything I can play (it is 128bpm sextuplets, I struggle to play it at half that speed), but tightening up my left hand seems absolutely required to even approach something like that.

TWRP - Starlight Brigade (feat. Dan Avidan) [Official video]

[joebegly]

@Gumgo

Here’s a short riff I’d like to eventually be able to play which, conveniently, uses the same 4-1-3-4-3-1 pattern (and variants) from Rock Discipline

Ah right, Troy always calls that “The 6 note pattern”. The Yngwie lick! FWIW, guess what fingers Yngwie uses there

Spoiler alert:

Yngwie Malmsteen REH Video Hot Licks Guitar Lesson +Tabs

There are a bunch of other licks on that video where he could go 1-3-4. Even lower on the neck.

Yngwie Malmsteen REH Video Hot Licks Guitar Lesson +Tabs

To me, he’s a great example because I totally imagine his formative years being full of him going “Ah, that’s hard. Eff that, I’ll do it an easier way”. Yes, he clearly practiced a ton, but he focused on practicing correctly and intuitively finds the easiest and most relaxed way to do everything.