Still trying to figure out what's going on with my picking mechanic - odd swooping motion (EDIT - crosspicking progress thread)

[Drew]

Nice work!

I’d love to take credit for it, but really this isn’t anything I’ve consciously developed over the years. So, um, my sub-conscious says “you’re welcome,” I guess, lol.

I’ll spend some time trying to figure out the supination part of the movement and dig into the Andy Wood stuff over the next couple weeks, and see if I can bring this from something that works “well enough” to a clean, accurate, and precice mechanic.

In the meantime, just as DWPS lends itself to certain approaches, UWPS others, TWPS still others… do either you or Andy (or Steve Morse or any of the other cross pickers you’ve talked to) really get into things that crosspicking lends itself more naturally for? I mean, the single-note-per-string stuff is pretty clearly far easier with a crosspicking approach than anything else, so that’s a no brainer to focus on… But one of the reocurring themes of CtC is how a lot of the elite level pickers got there by focusing on the strengths of their technique, so I’d think a next step for me after I iron out some of the kinks are trying to figure out how I could best play to my strengths.

(The embarrassing part of all of this, of course, is the videos up top of are me TRYING to DWPS, haha)

[Troy]

the single-note-per-string stuff is pretty clearly far easier with a crosspicking approach

Well if you’re talking about alternate picking it’s more than “easier”, it’s only possible with a crosspicking approach. Unless you include stringhopping but we can argue that’s not really even alternate picking.

In general I wouldn’t try to overthink this. If this is how you already play, then there’s your answer. No need to fix what ain’t broke. As you point out very few of the great players really “planned” their techniques, they just stumbled across movements and used them for phrases where they seemed to work.

Just keep using the technique on as many different kinds of phrases as possible. If you find some phrase where it really feels easy, then do more of that. That pentatonic stuff sounds great - I’d definitely do more of that. If that means 2nps type lines are your jam, then write some more. Seventh chord arpeggios are great for 2nps type fingerings…

[Drew]

Totally fair point. I guess I’ll cross that bridge when I get there, after I smooth out the picking a bit - as is pretty obvious in that acoustic video, it’s hardly a very precise, controlled mechanic for me at this point.

[Troy]

after I smooth out the picking a bit - as is pretty obvious in that acoustic video, it’s hardly a very precise, controlled mechanic for me at this point.

Be careful to compare apples with apples. Acoustic is a whole different animal mainly because of the boxy body shape. Your form there looks different. Instead I’m really looking at the first video on electric with the pentatonic lines — it sounds great and looks great, so the smoothness is already happening. It’s very similar to what Andy is doing in the clip I posted, so look at Andy’s form as a guide, i.e. where the forearm is mostly parallel to the strings, or close to it. That’s what will help the pickstroke escape at both ends.

[Drew]

Be careful to compare apples with apples. Acoustic is a whole different animal mainly because of the boxy body shape. Your form there looks different. Instead I’m really looking at the first video on electric with the pentatonic lines — it sounds great and looks great, so the smoothness is already happening. It’s very similar to what Andy is doing in the clip I posted, so look at Andy’s form as a guide, i.e. where the forearm is mostly parallel to the strings, or close to it. That’s what will help the pickstroke escape at both ends

I will - thanks! Knowing what the technique SHOULD look like is a huge help, because I think it’s also clear that it’s something I’m not doing consistently in this clip (there’s a few points where I’m definitely burying my downstrokes even if the upstrokes are coming free - due to the nature of the pattern, though, it’s happening at points where that doesn’t really matter).

[Troy]

I’m definitely burying my downstrokes even if the upstrokes are coming free - due to the nature of the pattern, though, it’s happening at points where that doesn’t really matte

That’s right! And that’s normal. It only matters when it matters. I guarantee you I’m not escaping all the time when I do this. But when I do 1nps lines I am because I have to.

I think people sometimes think, well, if I could do crosspicking, then I wouldn’t have to arrange my lines for complicated two-way pickslanting sequences where I only make some of the movements some of the time. But I’m pretty sure that’s just what happens naturally whether you like it or not. Andy’s particular cocktail of movements is pretty complicated but he has no perception of that - he just does whatever feels easy to him.

In your case if the line is clean then it is clean. I would only worry about burying some of those pickstrokes if it somehow affects what you’re doing musically. If not, then you’re good.

[Drew]

Figured I may as well just bump this and turn it into a “progress” thread.

Shot this a little earlier today:

Pentatonic picking - 4/15 slo-mo

The camera is a little far off, but I guess it gives you a better shot of what my forearm is doing, which sure enough DOES look rather a lot like Andy Woods’ arm movement in that clip, with what looks like a little bit of a clockwise rotation on the upstroke to help the pick clear the plane of the strings in what’s otherwise a wrist deviation driven motion.

This is a pentatonic scale in D, 10th fret, straight up, reaching up to the 15th fret with my pinkie, and then descending back down. Getting the feel of the descending string changes, moving down to a new string on an upstroke, after a downstroke on the last string, initially felt a little odd, but is becoming more natural. So, I’m looking for new variations that feel odd to smooth out my picking stroke further - for example, staying in D, starting on the m3 on the 8th fret of the A string, then playing the 10th and 12th on the A string before ascending in the pentatonic box and ascending up to whatever point feels natural to loop this evenly - say, the G on the 12th fret of the G string, or the C on the 13th fret of the B - seems to be another odd combination, because to play it with pure alternate picking that means you’re ascending from a downstroke on one string to an upstroke on the one above it. Unintuitive, but with a clean enough double escape, it SHOULD be possible to do at speed.

I haven’t really tried to max this out yet, but this is pretty clean at 140bpm - it was cleaner until the red light came on, of course, lol. Of course, the guitar is neon red with green pickups, so I think that should count for at LEAST another 5bpm!

[PickingApprentice]

Hi Drew, its a really interesting thread going on here and I have found myself in the same position - stumbling across the fact that a curve is present. In my critique thread Crosspicking or string hopping?

I have dedicated a lot of time to 2WPS and then 2 weeks ago noticed the curve. I have since been experimenting with crosspicking and will post an update with my progress. It would be really interesting to compare notes! It now feels like trying to serve 2 masters, but think that having more than one mechanical choice is very advantageous!

[Drew]

There’s some good discussion on that later on in this thread after your last post, where Troy argues they’re not necessarily entirely distinct as techniques.

Why Doesn't 2 Way Pickslanting Make Techniques Specifically Made For Cross Picking Unnecessary?

Ok, disclaimer, I really don’t want to seem pedantic here in fussing over the terms of things. But I think the idea here is that we’re trying to talk about some really complicated stuff and we need to be clear on what the terms mean, at least as we plan to use them, so that we’re not talking in circles around each other in threads like this. So with that in mind, the way I see this is that “two way pickslanting” and “crosspicking” are not different techniques. And one is not “better” at play…

I’m still trying to wrap my head around, well, the second half of that thread AND what exactly my hand is doing, but all I know is that since I’ve been focusing on trying to 'feel" what that crosspicking motion should feel like and then consciously bring it out in my playing, I’ve definitely seen my alternate picking get a lot smoother. And, after posting this last night, I cranked up the metronome to try to get a sense for how fast I COULD play that pentatonic scale run - things started to fal apart at 150bpm, but I felt like it was my fretting hand more than my picking hand holding me back, and with practice I’m sure I can get to there and possibly above. Being able to rip through pentatonic scales at 150-160bpm in 2nps patterns seems to me about as fast as I’d ever have musical need for, so I’d be pretty happy if I could get there.

[PickingApprentice]

I’m still trying to wrap my head around, well, the second half of that thread AND what exactly my hand is doing

Ditto…

I cranked up the metronome to try to get a sense for how fast I COULD play that pentatonic scale run - things started to fal apart at 150bpm, but I felt like it was my fretting hand more than my picking hand holding me back

I managed 3nps at around the same, but I suspect that some swiping may be going on. I found that my conventional 2WPS was more bold in tone/attack than my crosspicking - maybe the extra rotation is causing me to hit the strings with more conviction (or maybe the are a few ‘air-hits’ going on when crosspicking and legato is sounding the notes more smoothly).

Troy argues they’re not necessarily entirely distinct as techniques.

I’m not debating Troy’s expert opinion here, but personally I consider the 2 different as I am specifically approaching them differently (2WPS uses both slants, but with my crosspicking I am keeping a consistant DWPS- I understand that the slant is largely irrelevent with crosspicking, but it feels different). I have chosen to keep the DWPS for crosspicking to prove that I am actually doing the mechanic properly as opposed to a hybrid of 2WPS and crosspicking. It is also my primary pickslant so I thought it made sense in my brain.

[Troy]

I have chosen to keep the DWPS for crosspicking to prove that I am actually doing the mechanic properly as opposed to a hybrid of 2WPS and crosspicking

Try not to worry about the terminology here, it’s largely academic. What matters is that you understand the movements and how to make them. The crosspicking technique you have been working on is cool and as long as you can replicate it the same way from one day to the next then you can make it habitual.

[PickingApprentice]

@Troy

Try not to worry about the terminology here, it’s largely academic

I know…but I can’t help it CTC has opened Pandora’s box and now we know too much! And we think too much! God I wish I awas a ‘natural’!

@Troy, given the above advice and that of other posts, please don’t kill me for asking the next question:
Given that pickslanting (as in the angle of pick, not the movement) is not/ is less relevent with regards to crosspicking, how come some licks seem easier to play with a certain pickslant or 2WPS- My ability to string track varies. Do you think that:
1, The act of using slanting the pick is influencing whether I am still actually doing the crosspicking? (my fault, not the slant’s😁)
2, The slant may be assisting the inclusion of swiping?
3, The 2WPS is what I am used to so I am relaxed and do it more automatically
4, I haven’t done it long enough to become proficient at the mechanic

My instinct is that all 3 are quite possible, especially No.4

I will do another video on my other post in the next day or so, probably more useful.

Thanks!

[Troy]

Given that pickslanting (as in the angle of pick, not the movement) is not/ is less relevent with regards to crosspicking, how come some licks seem easier to play with a certain pickslant or 2WPS- My ability to string track varies. Do you think that:

I’m not really sure what you’re asking and these conversations quickly turn into word salad, especially if we’re not using the terms to mean the same things.

As usual, a video is worth a thousand words. If you’re having trouble playing something, post that example and we’ll take a look!

[PickingApprentice]

Fair play, will do!

quickly turn into word salad,

Great figure of speech!

[theGuyFromGermany]

@PickingApprentice

Given that pickslanting (as in the angle of pick, not the movement) is not/ is less relevent with regards to crosspicking, how come some licks seem easier to play with a certain pickslant or 2WPS- My ability to string track varies. Do you think that:

I experience the same.
My guess is that the you have less or more resistance depending if you slant directional or the oppsosite, therfor the same amount of force ends on different positions.
On top my experience is that due to (slightly) angling the wrist, and as a result the pick, the string resistance changes also with the strings.
My impression is that the hard part is not finding the best motion (which is hard enough) but finding a way to move the motion setup around while maintaning tone control ad accurate tracking.

If this doesn’t make sense or just got you wrong, take it as dressing on the salad

[Drew]

Ok, since I haven’t shared anything in a while and since I was talking about this a couple days ago, here’s another clip with something kind of odd in my playing that I’m trying to figure out if it’s a problem or not.

I at present have a mechanic that I guess I’d characterize as a not-terribly-efficient crosspicking approach - there’s a bit of an arc to by pickstroke, but it’s not huge. In the slow-mo you can see in certain points some swiping and rest strokes going on, which means at a minimum I’m not always entirely escaping the plane of the strings.

There’s this odd “cocking” motion, like I’m kind of winding up, that I’ve found myself doing, that I can feel at speed but it’s tough to really deconstruct, so I wanted to get a better look at it here. You can kind of see it in the video below - there was definitely some red light jitters going on, i promise I’m normally a hair smoother and cleaner than this, lol, but it’s a pretty good example of what I’m trying to figure out.

Pentatonic slop

To ME… It looks like I’m normally picking with an ver-so-slightly supinated arm and a bit of wrist deviation, but on those “cocking” motions, there’s clear forearm rotation pulling the pick back, whenever I’m about to do a downstroke onto the string one ABOVE (thinner, towards the treble side) the one I’m upstroking off. This is definitely not something I’m doing consciously.

This has the effect of moving my pick well over the plane of the stings and giving me plenty of room to get over the string I just picked and up to the next thinnest with my downstroke, and if we’ve learned anything from CtC it’s that big movements aren’t automatically a bad thing, and since my picking mechanic normally doesn’t involve wrist rotation, it’s not necessarily a mechanically inefficient movement either. But, by doing this am I solving a problem that there might be a better way to solve? I’ve found I CAN force myself not to do this, to a certain extent, but it takes conscious thought.

Anyway, any thoughts welcome. Sorry for the garbage pentatonic 3s, I just practice runs like this because they basically force you to escape in both directions, and to be perfectly honest, that stuff at the beginning, I didn’t even know I had started the video recording, but when I looked back at the footage afterwards I could see the rotation pretty clearly so I figured this was a good enough example to share.

[Troy]

something kind of odd in my playing that I’m trying to figure out if it’s a problem or not.

You’re describing this like it’s some kind of alien artifact that landed in your back yard, but it’s just two-way pickslanting with the forearm as we’ve always described it and taught it in Antigravity, the Pickslanting Primer, and so on. And as we were discussing in the other thread, the question is why do players do it and feel the need to do it, and that’s something we can continue to think about.

Is it a problem? No, I’ve played this way for a couple decades. Again, reference any Antigravity or Primer clip of your choosing. Here’s a good one for ascending inside string change forearm involvement:

https://troygrady.com/seminars/antigravity/clips/the-antigravity-lick/

However we also know that forearm isn’t strictly necessary, at least to the degree we maybe have thought. If you have an interest in developing wrist motion that doesn’t use forearm, then I would do it that way. i.e. I would work on your 902 (or similar) setup and getting those motions happening. In other words, I would not specifically try to “stop the forearm” from happening here, so much as I would try to “do the wrist version of the motion”. If that makes any sense.

Also, when you’re learning movements which might compete / interfere with movements you already know, it can be helpful to change something significant. That can make things feel like a blank slate, so that you don’t just lapse back into the movements you have already memorized. A different grip is a good way to do this, since it can immediately make things feel different. In your case, you can try an angle pad grip, or fingers extended, or both. Whatever gets you feeling like you’re learning something new and clean. If you like, you can always go back to this grip once you’ve got new motions happening.

[Drew]

You’re describing this like it’s some kind of alien artifact that landed in your back yard, but it’s just two-way pickslanting with the forearm as we’ve always described it and taught it in Antigravity, the Pickslanting Primer, and so on

I, um, will confess I haven’t yet watched Antigravity. I figured figuring out one-way pickslanting made sense before trying to tackle two-way. Guess I have some homework!

I’ll give a different grip a try too - can’t hurt, right?

[Troy]

I, um, will confess I haven’t yet watched Antigravity.

For shame!

Kidding, no, you’re fine. You have a good grasp of the things we discuss here so I wouldn’t rush out to try and rebuild the house. The grip thing I’m suggesting as a workaround if you’re trying to learn a new hand movement and you can’t stop sliding back into the old one. These kinds of “interference cleansers” work for me to get the brain thinking about new movements without baggage from the old.

And keep in mind also Antigravity is older and there were truckloads of things I didn’t know when we filmed that. So when I’m talking about the arm movements being necessary for certain things, we know now that they aren’t strictly. But indeed they work, and you will see them in playing like yours. So it’s cool to know that they exist.

I think your movements look fine and a little more awareness of them is always helpful. Then, moving forward, I would let whatever your musical goals are dictate what sort of mechanical changes, if any, you decide to make.

[Drew]

@Troy

For shame!

The shame! It burns! It burns!

Well, with the caveat that the explanations may be a little out of date, it probably makes sense for me to just keep practicing as normal without thinking much about mechanics but then at least watch through Antigravity so I have a point-in-time understanding of two-way vs single-escape vs crosspicking vs whatever else we collectively uncover next, and then try to think through what I’m seeing with a more complete understanding. Like, end of the day, there really isn’t any excuse for me to be able to identify something that seems irregular (if repeated consistently in certain scenarios) in my picking… but, not also recognize it as something already covered in Cracking the Code, and need to ask for advice here.

The biggest concern I have in my playing right now, to be perfectly honest, is precision - I wouldn’t mind being a hair faster, but being totally objective it’s not often I find myself wishing I could play faster to pull off a picked run. I just don’t feel like I really have the mechanical, clockwork-like precision I would like, and while certainly part of that is related to picking mechanics, honestly I feel even my trem-picking (something I really almost never do, while soloing but also while practicing - I’m 37, I missed the EVH thing and instead got tuned into shred by Satriani) isn’t particularly even. Maybe some time woodshedding on a single string is in order - variations of the Yngwie 6’s up and down a string, maybe.

The flip side is it’s also cycling season and I’m clawing my way back into riding shape post shoulder surgery, so that’s cutting into practice time. I have too many interests, lol.