That is correct. When most people say “use small movements” they are not really talking about movement size at all - they’re talking about using a large muscular force, especially when they are trying to learn. Using a moderate amount of force makes it easier to learn for a number of reasons, as I explained above, and I think every guitar teacher probably has had this experience of telling students to relax and not kill every note they play.
This is not the same thing as creating a small movement, and not the same thing as saying “small movements enable speed” - which is not true. The movement size is just the result of how hard you push at any given speed. If someone does not understand that playing fast is the result of learning to play fast, then they will be eternally confused why they can’t go faster even though their “movements are small”.
If that were true, Zakk Wylde’s picking hand would make small movements. he looks and sound like he is trying to play just as fast as he possibly can in much of his unaccompanied solo in concert and in the songs he plays which have some of his fastest solos… MAB makes tiny movements. Wylde makes huge movements. This debunks the myth of when you play very fast, the movements “must” become smaller."
Hey there @Troy, gang, since Graham’s “planting” technique’s been brought up, I thought I’d mention that it’s as much about practicing tension and release than perfecting motion slowly. The energy to pick ends up being released at the point when the pick is ready to continue.
Don’t know if someone else has already addressed that point, but having discussed it with the man, felt it important to distinguish between the common and what he’s bringing in from his classical training and influences.
And on a random related note, I wonder if anyone else here studied with Tony Burton, the co-author of Troy Stetina’s “Metal Guitar Tricks?”
Not really. You’re not doing a before and after comparison here. To prove your point, you’d have to demonstrate that Zakk’s picking motions don’t get smaller with increasing speed. Comparing his movements to MAB’s doesn’t tell us anything, especially since they use totally different mechanics.
He plays tiny motions when just using the wrist (I know that happens rarely).
When using elbow shoulder it’s a tension system which requires strength and energy.
And I’m pretty sure he’s not playing as fast as he can, he’s playing as hard as he can at the required speed.
He’s simply not moving in the economy of motions system, and in his case that’s great, he does it for tonal and sytle reasons.
Regarding the theory that at maximal speeds, movements must become smaller, but trying to consciously decrease the size of movements does not lead to speed increases is what I believe Troy is telling us… @Troy, is that an accurate summary of what you’ve been trying to convince me and others of? So basically you consider the principle of economy of motion i.e. by making a conscious effort to decrease the size of one’s movements, it is possible to increase the top speed with which one can play a lick or riff, to no be a valid theory. Is that correct? if so, I’ll move on to the addressing the next quote:
You’re suggesting that the phrase “size of a movement” could be simplified by substituting the term “muscle force” for “movement size”?
I can’t think of one instance where doing so would even be rational, but I can certainly think of plenty of instances where doing so would be irrational. For example: If I’m in a gym doing bench presses and I do one set of 10 repetitions with 135 pounds on the bar and then a second set of 10 repetitions with 175 pounds on the bar, I’ll have to increase my “muscle force” in the second set because of the heavier weight of the bar. However, my “movement size” will remain identical! The movement size can be measured by making a note of where the bar is at the start of each repetition - with my arms both fully extended a vertical direction and then I will proceed to lower the bar slowly until the bar ever so gently gazes against my chest but I don’t actually rest the bar on my chest. Once the bar brushes against my chest I extend my arms until they are in a fully extended position so that the elbows are locked.
As you’ve noticed, the amount of muscular force changed from set one to set two but the movement size did not!
Now, let’s once again take a look at something else you stated:
“The reason his movements are small at that speed is the crazy frequency at which he is able to turn on and off the muscles on each side of the joint. It it is not because he is “pushing less hard”, and it’s not because he practiced “small movements” when he played at more moderate speeds. It’s because he learned how to do extremely rapid, sprinter-style on-off joint movements. And to do that, he had to put out tons of force and switch rapidly.”
Speaking of sprinting, it is the type of running in which one exerts more muscular force than any other type of running because it is used in races where the duration is the lowest while the intensity of effort put forth by the athletes (maximal muscular force) is the highest of all the running races. According to the theory Troy espouses which states that at maximal speeds, the size of the movements must come smaller, that would mean that in, say, the 40 yard dash, the length of the strides used by the competitors would be smaller than the length of the strides used in a more moderate speed race such as the one mile race. However, this is simply not true. It is of maximal benefit to the runners to take strides which both exert tremendous muscular force and are very long strides and that iis how a sprint is run - using long strides despite the theory put forth on this forum that at maximal speeds, the size of movements must decrease.
Here it’s about gaining distance. Imagine what a sprint would look like if it’d be about making as many steps as possible in a certain amount of time, and you’ll get the result.
I think this is what makes this topic kindof difficult. Our brains are trained to equal speed with distance, thats the most cmmon daily experience. The speed of a repetition (frequency) is just something different and we have no natural sense for it.
So we have to rely on logic and science.
Point well taken. In hindsight, sprinting was a bad example to use here. So now I’ll provide a far better example to back up my belief in the theory of economy of motion i.e. the theory which states that by consciously making an attempt to decrease the size of his movements, a guitarist can increase his speed.
The example I’ll use is fretboard hand economy of motion. I used to lift my fingers fairly high off of the fretboard each time I released my finger from fretting a note. Then one day I read in a guitar magazine that as guitarists we could increase the speed of our fretboard hands by lifting the fingers just the minimum amount necessary above the fretboard. Doing so would mean that since the fingers would never be very far off the fretboard, the distance the fingers would have to travel in total would be minimized. So, without even needing to move the fingers at a greater rate of speed, it would be possible to fret more notes within the same amount of time as it used to take to get fewer notes. The fingers would have to move less distance per note fretted. That is a wonderful example of the principle of economy of motion in action!
If what someone tells themself in their mind results in them playing better, I won’t argue that. Results are what matters! But when someone does not get results, it does matter how things actually work because they might be doing something wrong.
So again to summarize what I am saying here, and what I’ve been saying in these various discussions, is the plain old common sense observation that the only thing you can control in your picking technique is the operation of the muscles at the joint. You can turn a muscle on, with a given force, and keep it on for a certain amount of time. And then you can turn it off. That’s it. The amount of time you keep that muscle activated, and the amount of force you apply, is what determines the resulting movement size. There is no way you can control the movement size directly. You can only turn the muscle on with a given force and turn it off after a certain amount of time.
This is true for guitar playing, sprinting, and every other type of human activity that can be performed by a joint. There is a relationship between these three parameters: muscle force, muscle activation time, and movement size. You can have fast movements that are large like sprinting. You can have fast movements that are small, like the fastest guitar picking we have filmed. You can have slow movements that are large and slow movements that are small. And everywhere in between. And you do that by controlling two simple things: force and time. Movement size you do not control - it simply results from the other two.
And at this point I’ve probably run out of ways to explain this!
Again, I’m not saying that size must decrease with speed, only that there is a relationship between these three parameters, and that the “size” is the result of the other two.
Interestingly, hummingbird wing flaps don’t get smaller with increasing speed either. This is something we discuss in the interview with Bret Tobalske from the flight lab at the University of Montana, where they study these birds. This is part of the speed-related series of interviews we did, which we will start to edit hopefully soon.
Given that flying is pretty integral to what birds do, it may be that there is additional circuitry for this particular movement that tries to keep the wing flap force proportional to the wing flap time, i.e. to keep the flap size optimal for whatever flight requires. I didn’t think to ask this but that would be a cool question we can ask Bret that is related to the “how” of what we are discussing here.
That hummingbird thing would be quite interesting - funny i still don’t play too much but i really love thinking about these things
As I said before I don’t think that all of our models have all variables in,the decreased range of motion is the logic result of our probably simplified model and matches what I see.
I does not match 100% what I feel, to me none of the repetive motions feel like doing two separate pushes, it’s more like spinning a wheel.
My guess is that there is some kind of an energy store ingredient somewhere inside and the whole thing has at least a partial spring mechanic involved.
I know that fleas and kangoroos doing there jumps that way, it’s not the contraction of the muscle it’s the release of the stored energy.
… now I’ll dream of hummingbirds - hmm topless hummingbirds serving beer
We actually discuss this with Bret and with the North Carolina researchers. This is how the human achilles tendon works, by stored energy. And it is how some insect wings flap, by vibration of the carapace they are connected to. The speeds achieved by insect wings are so high that they become audible pitches.
But as far as we know, this is not how hummingbird wings and human arms move - there is not a spring component. They are individually actuated muscle movements.
Edit:
But these are excellent suggestions! This is how hyperpicking players like @milehighshred and @TheCount describe the feel of the movement, and so these hypotheses were floated by the researchers as possibilities for how the movement might work. Similar thinking on your part.
Probably I ctached the term there
I’m pretty sure that spasm mechanic works that way, that’s probably the only mechanic in my reportoire that I think of works the way I think - I tend the upper arm which decreases the range of the elbow angle while I can throw all the strength in I have. That works fine but it feels disgusting.
The intresing thing is, usually I use exclusively the wrist and have a mix of rotation and the common back forth (sorry still don’t have the terms for that in yet). That feels totally relaxed but still from a certain speed two strokes feel as one, or even more there’s no stroke at all it’s just slower of faster.
The ‘bad’ thing about that is (for me) from that point the motion is in stealth mode, which is for me the main hurdle in practicing slow.
At least now I know (and see) what is needed to solve problems, but the way to execute what i want is still trial and error cause it’s hidden in stealth mode.
I’ll browse a little in the posts of the mentioned members tomorrow maybe I can find something how they handle that.
Good to know I’m not alone with it, thanks for pointing that out!
Thanks for the name drop!
To drop in my thoughts on it, the wheel motion is quite accurate. This is why I find this motion pretty difficult to control, and can’t really play anything too intricate with it. It feels very different to any other of my picking motions, and as discussed in another thread, this is definitely not something I developed by practicing slowly!
Thanks for dropping in
I now read the thread on your technique, and it seems we have the same ‘dislike’ spots.
Which leads to my question, have you figured something out to get it on click?
I always thought I’m just weak at timing but now it seems as if that’s related to the technique.
And after thinking about it hat makes sense, I can control speed and volume as I want but I don’t feel specific strokes, so getting it on click is more adjust the tempo instead of hitting it.
Have you tried this with fat round pick? I use big stubbies and with them I can get almost legato sounds.
Unfortunately I don’t have a valuable camera in my phone, but I’ll try to get someting down with my macbook, as soon as my son grants me some spare time
To be honest, the click is pretty random. This was a suggestion from Troy to go from about 160 until my arm gave up to see A) how fast I could go and B) if there were any spots I couldn’t hit with either regular picking or hyper picking. Is it 4 notes per beat? Probably not, but it’s a rough indicator. It’s somewhere in the ballpark of those metronome markings without being exact (I think, anyway!) I’m not sure how I’d practice actual licks with this technique because it’s pretty uncontrolled for me, once the gear clicks in it’s hard to do any adjustments. I think that’s why you so often see people playing at this speed at the left hand just plays something and hopes for the best! But that has a place, if you want to have a chaotic speed burst in a song then it’s fine.
Pick doesn’t make huge amounts of difference. I use a Swiss Pick which has a very pointed tip which makes it easy to glide through the string, but I’ve tried it with a more rounded tipped standard dunlop and that’s fine as well. The only requirement I have with picks is that it doesn’t bend. I tried it with one of the super thing dunlops just to see and can’t get anywhere close with that! Anything from about 1mm upwards is fine!
Hopfully your son will grant you some mac time so you can record something, i’d like to see!
Damn i hoped you had a nice approach to time it accurate.
On the other hand it’s good to hear that this seems to go hand in hand with that kind of motion, so at least there’s a chance I’m not totally free of talent
I’ll do my best converning recording, though I don’t have too much hope that the quality will be on a level to do some proper analysis (including my playing ), but I’m honestly curious myself. I prepared some new motions for me and now need to find out what i want to keep, ans addition I never filmed myself playing, that might get funny.
Anyways actually I’m glad that my boss closes both eyes when I spend my time here while in office
Just if you’re interested, currently I try to another version of that motion, just I try not to move the pick but the wrist instead, that seems to be promising. I don’t get that to the same speedlevel but it’s still pretty fast and at the moment I have the impression I regain at least a fair amount of control and feel and have some options in slant and angle.
If only I could! Regardless, I think it’s still a useable technique. Maybe I could train it to get it accurate, but I have other things I’d rather practice at the moment.
As for the wrist motion, I use that mechanic for slow to medium tempo stuff, works quite well. There’s an incredible player called Roy Marchbank (there’s a thread on him buried deep in this forum somewhere!) Who says he only uses his wrist to pick. And he’s INSANELY fast and very accurate.
He explains it more in depth here (quite a long video, but very entertaining!)
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