Maybe this dilemma only happens with people with smaller hands, but here goes:
This only happens when doing stretches, such as a 3-5-7 fretting stretch…or 1-3-5 fretting stretch…
When playing above, say, the 7th fret, I usually wrap my thumb around the back of the neck to where it meets the binding (or, if some guitars don’t have binding, the fretboard “dots”…) on the low “E” string. I think most people do this…I see this very often.
However, when going below the 7th fret, in order to do a 3-5-7 stretch, I need to move my thumb from the binding area to about the middle of the neck.
Example: When fretting a 3-5-7, I move my thumb away from the dots (or neck binding) and move it to the half-way point in the neck between the low “E” and high “E” strings.
This helps me perform the necessary 3-5-7 fretting.
My question is this: Is this normal? Do other people do this? If so, there seems to be a time delay in moving the thumb…at least for me. I can do licks down the neck, but have to take time to reposition the thumb. Any way to avoid this “repositioning time”?
It is normal, do this all the time.
The time delay for moving the thumbs position is not something that i experience.
You could try to play all the time with the thumb behind the neck, works great, except for some bending stuff.
Normal, yes, though for some techniques position of thumb can matter greatly. I find it necessary to take a more classical approach when doing all left-hand tapping, thumb behind fingers, approximating a more natural pincer motion.
I’m going to take this in a totally different direction, but yes, this is normal, and IMO it’s actually a good habit to have.
Long story short, back in college, I had some RSI issues - I showed a buddy a really stretchy lick I was working on, he started practicing it and suddenly was at risk of being able to play it faster than me, so as a typical 19 year old I started binge-practicing. That coupled with too-low-slung a guitar with a really skinny neck, and the next thing you know I had some pretty inflamed ligaments to contend with, that necessitated some time off the guitar which I used to research RSI issues.
You’re referring to two distinct wrist positions, the “classical” position, with your thumb behind the neck, and what I call the “blues” position, with your thumb wrapped around the neck. As you’ve noticed, the former DOES allow a bit more reach along the fretboard, so when you’re playing stretchy licks (especially further down the neck) you’re generally going to want to shift into a “classical” position, to facilitate the longer stretches.
However, the problem is the “classical” position also involves a much sharper wrist angle, and that puts a LOT of stress on your wrist. Over time, this can cause problems. The “blues” position, meanwhile, in addition to arguably providing a little more leverage for bending and a “shaking the wrist” rock or blues style of vibrato, also provides a much more relaxed and comfortable wrist angle.
So, what you describe as a problem, the transition from a “blues” to a “classical” thumb position, I think is actually a healthy playing habit. Spend most of your playing time in a hand position that allows a relatively relaxed, straight wrist angle, but when you need to do something involving some pretty wide stretches, move into a “classical” position, just being aware that you’re increasing the stress on your wrist.
I think this is something Satriani does pretty well in his playing - jump to about the 3:15 minute mark in this, as he’s coming out of the main theme and about to launch into the solo, with a lot of 3nps legato down at the base of the neck. Watch his thumb - you can see him jumping back and forth from the “classical” and “blues” positions as needed, based on what he’s playing:
Not for nothing, Satch has been playing very acrobatic legato lines for north of 30 years now, and the only time I can remember him ever mentioning any RSI issues was some irritation after tracking “The Power Cosmic” for a guitar mag, where it was all tapped fretting hand arpeggios while muting with his picking hand, which per @RockStarJazzCat’s point likely would have been played in the classical position.
I agree with much of what you say, except for this part. The main point of ‘classical position’ on almost any instrument is to minimize stress and allow for efficient and non-harmful movements. In other words, in a real classical position, your wrist will be straight.
In addition to a classical position for your hand and wrist, there is also a classical position for the guitar itself. Classical guitarists rest the guitar on the leg corresponding to their fretting hand, while the ‘casual’ position (just a name) rests the guitar on the leg corresponding to their picking hand. The main difference is that the casual position puts the guitar neck lower and parallel to the ground, while the classical position puts the guitar body lower, the neck higher and and roughly 45 degree angle to the ground. The reason this is effective is that your wrist is more comfortable, flexible, and efficient in a neutral position (ie. forearm not supinated/pronated, and wrist not flexed/extended). The fretting elbow also ends up in a closer to neutral position in classical position.
When electric guitarists decide to address this issue, they often shorten their straps and raise their guitars up to their chests, like Tom Morello. They end up in a hybrid casual-classical position with the wrist neutral, the elbow neutral (or flexed), but the forearm supinated, solving only half of the problem, IMHO.
I think a better solution than raising the guitar is to angle the guitar neck to classical position. One of the benefits of this approach is that you don’t have to shorten your strap, so you can switch easily between classical and casual position as you change your fretting grip (and you can keep your cool Ramones posture). Watch Slash, Zakk, or any number of speedy players that hang their guitars down low. When they solo, they often wedge the butt of their guitar against their inner thigh, so that they can clamp it into classical position while they shred. Then they go back to casual position at the end of the solo. Check out the solos in the video for November Rain to see what I’m talking about. This at least partially explains the wide-legged stance many soloists adopt (again, see Slash). Other similar tricks include putting a foot up on a monitor, or dropping into a crouch during a solo.
To make this work standing up, I find that my guitar has to be well balanced, and not neck-heavy. Otherwise I have to support the weight of the neck with my fretting hand, which adds friction and tends to supinate my forearm. I have sometimes moved my strap buttons to different positions to fix the balance and make this easier.
When I switched from the short-strap approach to the neck-angle approach to soloing while standing, I was stunned at how much easier it made everything and all those guitar god poses made so much more sense. For me, this was a huge deal. It was the crucial insight that made it just as easy for me to play standing up as sitting down. Also, optimal strap length is no longer a critical factor. I can play just as comfortably with a low-slung guitar as with a higher one. Less finickiness/more robustness is always a positive, for me.
@induction, hadn’t been online in a few days, so I want to apologize for ignoring you there.
Very good post, and you raise a good point - the argument I’m making is only true in “normal” rock playing position, whhen the “classical” thumb position, which is optimized for a seated posture that holds the guitar at nearly chest level, translates into a pretty sharp and uncomfortable wrist angle for a typical rock posture.
I’ve honestly never tried the sort of ultra-low-slung position favored by guys like Slash, at least for any length of time, but at some point I’ll have to sling a guitar well below my waist and see if a sharp neck angle like that works for wider stretches in the classical posture - it sounds like in your experience it has. It just feels awkward for me so I’ve never dedicated much time to it.
So, for now, I’ll amend what I said to being good advice for a “normal” rock posture, where you need to be cognizant of wrist angle in the classical position. That may not be the only way to solve that problem, though, and other approaches, like a steep neck angle, could address it as well.
Perhaps this is tangential, but a barrier to maintaining a classical position while standing is if the guitar in question has a thickness to it. My body says “no” to having the edge of a guitar pressing into my forearm. I’m inclined to ask Rick Graham if that perhaps guides his use of strats, for the relief under the forearm.
Since were on this topic. Is there anyone here who plays without using the thumb at all? I’m finding myself doing this more and more. Using the top of the palm (opposite of the knuckles) as the fulcrum.
That coupled with too-low-slung a guitar with a really skinny neck, and the next thing you know I had some pretty inflamed ligaments to contend with, that necessitated some time off the guitar which I used to research RSI issues.
