Tommo's progress on the Erotomania final solo - including analysis

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#41

Hey @PickingApprentice, sorry for the delay! I’ve been thinking a bit about this type of issue - let’s say “speed above which your nervous system struggles”. From my experience with this solo, I don’t think this can be solved by playing at a slower tempo.

Probably a good idea is to take another lick that is about the same duration but a bit easier for the picking hand (say - using only your favourite pickslant/escape path -possibly covering all 6 strings along the way). Or, simply add some legato “cheats” here and there in the 5s lick itself (like I did), to make it fit better your current technique.

Then, try to play this simplified lick at, or a bit above, the speed of the “5s lick”.

The idea is to remove all other obstacles (difficult string changes and so on) and get used to the feeling of that speed.

Once you have experienced that speed, you can try to go back to the original task and add the additional complications.

Disclaimer: just my ideas, no real science here :slight_smile:

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#42

An idea is unwritten science in my book! Thanks for the post, it makes a of sense. I like the idea of simplifying it to give my nervous system a chance to get a feel for it (and feel some progress!)

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#43

I think @tommo’s idea of initially simplifying a complex lick or phrase to get then feel, and then adding in the additional complications, is a good one. I think this concept can also be applied to complicated rhythmic phrases in, say, Yngwie’s solos, which are full of diverse mashups of odd note groupings. For something like that, the idea might be to fiest learn the solo in something like all 16th notes. Then once it’s under your fingers, you can start checking out the more complex note groupings.

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#44

@tommo, I forgot to ask… did you find getting the 5s licks timing difficult when you practiced? I like to use a metronome periodically to get a ballpark figure of what my top tempo is currently, bit I’m finding it difficult to get it. Do you think it is worth trying to get the 5s in time now or convert it to 16ths, work on the speed and worry about the 5s later?

#45

In my case I was reasonably comfortable with the 5s as it made intuitive sense to me in terms of phrasing/accenting - but that is probably because I had practiced 5-note groupings in the past.

Definitely try the 16th version, in the spirit of removing obstacles to get to the desired speed :slight_smile: Also, the central musical idea of this lick is based on a group of 20 notes, so it works nicely both with 16ths and with 5s.

The click should be 195bpm for 16th notes, 156bpm for 5s.

#46

Hi Tommo
I want to get an impression of how outstanding difficult and therefore also of what beauty this Solo is. I have the hal Leonhard Transkription. Are they a good starting point to figure it out. Or do you have netter tabs with for the left hand and perhaps for the up and downstrokes and swipes?

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#47

Hey @nikita1504, this solo is really hard for me, and I think even the great John Petrucci has some difficulties playing it live (sorry for the blasphemy :wink: ).

I transcribed my cover on soundslice and included details on the pulloffs; plus some swipes that I am aware of are also notated. Have a look and I’d be happy to answer any questions on upstrokes, downstrokes and swipes :slight_smile:

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#48

Oh dear, just came across this. I’ve finished playing the guitar for today :smiley:

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#49

May be a case of “grass os greener on the other side” with the two of us :slight_smile:

Also while I’m happy with the overall result, you can definitely find little issues here and there if you wanted to… but it may be that when it’s someone else playing we are more willing to let these things go :slight_smile:

PS: note how I didn’t pick everything in the final lick, there’s a few pulloffs here and there that I notated. Since you are DSX like me, give them a try and see if they make the lick easier to play at tempo.

I know that also Andy James plays the final lick with a pulloff every 10 notes and I never saw anyone complaining about his rendition:)

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#50

Well, you can pick and play this on tempo, and I’m really far from that. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
I do not consider doing a pull off here and there or altering a lick to fit your primary picking motion, thanks to the progress I make based on your feedback.

So, amazing playing as usual and even the dry signal version sounds super clean to me … and honestly, at these tempos, I don’t think anybody can hear the “inconsistency” of the volumes of the notes, especially with gain added (and that’s how it should be played). I’m super jealous and happy for you that you could pull this off.

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#51

POT TO KETTLE MY DUDE! :smiley:

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#52

Dude. DUDE. This was amazing. My god. Nice job @tommo! Absolutely nailed it.

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#53

Wow Tommo! That’s a lot of work. Great solo, well played, I didn’t micro obsess, I really liked the stereo mix.

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#54

Wow the DI is sounding really good, this just made me realize I need to practice solos with clean channel aswell

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#55

Didn’t realise this was 3 years old and just listened! Great playing from @tommo of course - just on which version sounds better - I like the double tracked. For some reason just sounds pleasant to the ear hearing it done that way. I think it is a great advertisement for double tracking solos this! Outstanding

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#56

Thanks for feeding my ego :rofl:

I’m not sure I’d personally do that, playing to a DI is just painful! I find that I do my best when I’m playing with a pleasing tone (=GAIIINNN :D). When you do that, you’ll find that the DI is quite good, so that it will sound OK also when you reamp it with other amps in the same style.

More generally I prefer to practice parts with a similar tone as the one I am planning to use in the recording. Of course, if it’s a clean part I’d use a clean tone. But I think clean / gain tones affect your technique and playing style in different ways

Same here! in the recordings I do for fun I like to double track everything. In the stuff I do for instructional materials (like Metronomic Rock) I instead have only one track for the lead guitar, so as to create more realistic expectations as to what a single player might sound like.

I just realised this is actually 5+ years old! Where did that time go? :smiley:

#57

Double tracking solos can easily get this washed out sound that I don’t really care for. Your playing was so tight I could easily have not even noticed it was doubled, which means you NAILED IT! It makes me wonder if the fast/precise playing is less prone to that washed out sound. I love Randy Rhoads and I’m glad he doubled (tripled??? lol!) many of his parts. It just has this iconic sound, but it’s never something I’d want in my own playing. His playing was a little looser in general. Things like a lot of bends/vibrato/legato I’d imagine are harder to sync than the more machine gun like stuff you did here.

Do you still play it? :slight_smile: Does it feel easier now than it did back then? Or is it more like an athletic event that requires working up to? My playing’s WAY better now than it was 5 years ago and I suck. I’d imagine someone like you, even at the high level you were playing at back then, you’ve got a lot of perspective and experience since then. 5 years is a lifetime of gains for serious musicians.

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#58

I can’t take credit for this observation, but talking to someone who majored in recording at the collegiate level, one of the things they were taught from an arangement standpoint is that your ear is more likely to accept things as sounding “grounded” and “centered” and less washed out when you use an odd number of takes for layering - tripled, quintupled, whatever - and have them balanced with at least one in the middle. This was with the focus on vocals, but pretty cxlearly applies to guitars too.

I dont’ do a lot of doubling or harmonizing in my own stuff, but for the times I do, I’ve usually had one “lead” track, and then two “supporting” ones, often leaning into it by mixing them hard L and R, and a bit further back in the mix.

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#59

I don’t think I ever tried to play this again (sometimes the final 5s bit for noodling purposes). But I would guess that the difficulty has remained the same, i.e., pretty difficult!

I don’t think I could play this super clean in a live situation, but then again, neither can JP (still love him of course :wink: )

PS: what I would change now after 5-ish years extra experience is that I may try to simplify it a little more (maybe with a few extra sneaky pulloffs) so as to make it the easiest possible. Then, I’d have more energy left to work on the delivery, phrasing, rhythm etc.

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#60

Very interesting. And reminds me of a post I’ve wanted to make for a while re: doubling and haven’t gotten around to it.

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