Hey thanks for plugging away on this, appreciate it. Here’s the slow-mo version of the 4 string clip. I’m not exactly sure what happens to the audio when the video gets slowed way down, certainly doesn’t line up well anymore but the visuals are easier to see at least.
You’re right, the movement feels completely different, if I needed to push it faster, I could (at the detriment of what little cleanliness there is obv) but if I was asked to push that 3 string roll faster, no bueno. I doubt I could manage even another 5 bpm without it just entirely losing ability to pick the strings or short circuiting the d - u - d – u - d - u sequence.
Np! Happy to help. Thanks for the slow-mo video! It looks (and sounds) to me like you’re rarely actually hitting the 4th string in the sequence.
As far as the motion goes, I am far from an expert, @tommo would be a much better judge than me, but I don’t see anything inherently wrong with the motion other than it seems pretty inconsistent. It looks like the motion isn’t quite ingrained yet.
If it were me, I’d still stick with the plan I laid out in my last reply and really try to bake in that easy, fast motion. Maybe record yourself at the top speed, then when you get down to a speed where it’s accurate, record yourself at that speed too so that you can compare the motions. The idea being that starting fast will force you to use an efficient motion, then you slow down that efficient motion to allow it to gain accuracy, then speed it up again to make sure the motion is still efficient and over time, you keep the speed and gain accuracy. In theory, you should really start to feel the difference between when it’s working and when it’s not. If you’re slowing it down and it all of sudden starts to feel less easy or smooth, jump right back up to full speed to remind yourself what that fast playing feels like.
Hey! Thanks for the mention and sorry I’m a bit late to the party! I also think that these “4 string examples” show the most promising form, and I also don’t see anything wrong with the motion.
Sure, extra string are being played but I think this is a more realistic approximation to efficient crosspicking than the first couple of videos, which looked like micromanaged motions to me.
My feeling is that you should try going for it with these 4 string arps (or similar patterns) and see if in the next few days / weeks you notice that things are starting to clean up. Maybe do some more slo-mo filming once in a while to check if you are getting some clean double escapes in there. Not all the time, just a few here and there will tell you that you are on the right track.
One thing I noticed in these 4-string examples is that you often miss the high E string and play the B string 2 or 3 times, so this could be one of the first things you could focus on in the short term: make sure that the pick is hitting each of these 4 strings at the intended time. At first it’s ok if other strings get caught in the process, but make sure the “correct” one is played.
By the way, another thing I would suggest (and which I’m trying to do myself) is to occasionally try the Steve Morse / Albert Lee 3-finger pick grip.
I found it very helpful when I’m stuck with old motion habits: e.g. I also had trouble going for the “fast and sloppy crosspicking” with my normal grip, because I’m so used to the controlled stuff. I’m now trying the 3 -finger grip here and there and it’s helping me to let it go a little.
It’s not always awesome, I’ve had to fight my way through a few spider-crickets on the way to my office. Those things give me the ULTRA creeps, eeuugh.
Yeah I’m definitely going to need to take a firehose to things because man, breaking out of ingrained habits is difficult.
I was looking at my hand/wrist position yesterday wondering why I’m having such an issue clearing strings and I started wondering if I’m not actually in the proper position. It almost feels like I’m halfway between the Andy Wood supinated setup and the David Grier / Molly Tuttle pronated position.
That may well be the case! If you go exactly halfway, you may find that wrist deviation becomes a fully trapped motion - and you don’t want that! You always want to have one of the escapes “for free”
PS: when using exclusively wrist motion, that is. With additional joints like forearm thrown in the mix, the analysis becomes more complicated - and may not be worth doing VS just sitting down with the guitar and beasting it
I realized last night that my wrist sits almost completely flat across the bridge, and doesn’t seem to ‘tilt’ pronated or supinated… which suggests adjustments are necessary and explains why my fast motion remains trapped as hell and why I swipe on everything fast I play.
I had this exact same problem. My default single escape motion (and my fastest tremolo picking) is pronated, however my most comfortable DBX motion is the Andy Wood slightly supinated thing. So of course, I accidentally landed in between the two. Because I was used to being a bit pronated, being flat on the bridge felt supinated to me, I just needed to go a little farther.
So that begs the question, what did you do to resolve that? Or was glomming onto that fact enough to set you on the right direction and made for easier self analysis on ‘why is this working/not working?’
I had to make a conscious point of tilting my arm a little more than I thought I needed to toward the floor. Now I can actually do it in either direction, supinated or pronated, but since the majority of my practice has be supinated that does feel a little more comfortable and accurate. Though now I think about it, maybe I’ll put some work into pronated DBX too since that’s my default single escap motion too. Hmmm…
I’d like to throw 3 videos to update my forward roll progress.
April 2020
October 2020
Today
That last one seems to be well and truly in the ballpark finally. Messy and whatnot but there’s clearly a pulse and often even individual strings are ringing, on purpose even
Weirdly, I’ve not been practicing that roll very much (at all) lately. It had pissed me off enough where I just dropped it and have been doing OTHER guitar stuff. Tried it a few days ago and got nowhere, like worse than my 2nd video, uncoordinated, missing strings, full strums hopping the works. So I once again, sat down and really watched the crosspicking with the wrist video clips and like @tommo suggested…
So I literally started at a speed much closer to my endgoal. It sounded like crap to start, but I was still doing weird hops and jumps every so often, looking at Troy’s motion, like he says it’s pretty much a straight left+right feel, no need to hop over the strings (obviously) so I did that for about 5 minutes and then while being distracted watching some Twitch streams all of a sudden realized ‘wait a sec, this sounds pretty alright and is ballpark exactly the right tempo!’
Repeatable too obviously, since I was able to setup a camera and grab the footage. Need to clean it up as there’s still too much strumming for what I’m aiming to achieve, but my wife has heard it enough and she thinks it sounds fine so, I could fake it if forced into it I’m sure
This looks great. Only comment is, do you see the change in your wrist and forearm position when you play the second group of three notes, i.e. the one that starts on the upstroke? You press down flatter against the guitar body with your forearm. Then you go back to the original arm position when you start the downstroke repetition. That’s not necessary. Just use the same arm position as you do for the first three notes, where you start on a downstroke.
You may not be aware you’re doing this, but it is at some level “deliberate”, or let’s say, voluntary, since nothing is causing this to happen other than choice. People do this because they feel like they need to try and “reach” that lowest string on the upstroke. You don’t have to do that. The wrist can reach it already. That’s where it started. So just trust that it can reach, and move it to the left, until it gets back to the low string. You don’t have roll to the arm to try and dive toward it.
In general the approach you are following here is correct. The Oct 20 video looks stringhoppy whereas this one does not, because you’re going fast enough to where stringhopping would either be impossible or at least very obviously wrong by feel.
I’m in the exact same boat. My wife is constantly telling me “That sounds great to me!”, so at this point I think I could fake it in a pinch. I’m still on the path though.
I had noticed it yes, figured it was superfluous but hadn’t drilled down as to what was going on yet. I was just so happy I got something even this close
I will ‘take that under advisement’ and pass your info along to the appropriate parties for analysis and action.
Glad I’m on the right path now, this was/is a real bugbear
The first video in this thread also looks good, and less hoppy, even though it’s also from Oct 20. So this path isn’t linear. You may have some things that you play where the motion is wrong, and others where it’s right, and you can’t always tell the difference at first. Hopefully you’re becoming more aware by feel and that will translate into more repeatability.
Yeah that’s an odd one to me, I picked up the motion requirements for the tune far quicker than I’ve been able to pickup the repeating roll. I’m wondering if it has something to do with the repetition, because sure while Fisher’s Hornpipe repeats it’s not a constant thing.
Either way, thanks for the input and I yeah, I feel that I’m at least able to pin down what a motion closer to correct feels like now vs what is a cul-de-sac.
