USX work - fork in my road; what's next?

Playing Technique
#1

@RobertFlores inspired me to get visual. So… I’ve been working both on tremolo and a piece of @tommo’s Sixes etude. Here’s my tremolo at 120bpm (all these vids are sextuplets, so in a sense we’re really talking straight 16ths at 180, right?..)

Pretty hiccupy. Hard to hear the metronome in the background, but take my word for it that my timing’s not good. Notes are uneven, too.

So I tried it at 112bpm too…

Takes a second to hit my stride, but much better - and much more comfortable, physically. It feels way better than the first, faster one.

[As for those ‘garage spikes’ you pointed out, @Troy, I guess they haven’t completely disappeared yet - I saw on film how my pick is struggling to get through the string on the downstroke - but I think it’s somewhat better. I think I had too much pick edge; trying now to present a flatter pick to the string. Maybe that’s what you meant by straightening the thumb…?]

Next, the Sixes. 112bpm seemed like a decent bet:

Well, I feel like I’m holding on for dear life. I’m altering the pick angle during string changes, too. This felt much better:

That’s at 92bpm. I know, that’s pretty slow for CTC’s neighborhood - but (I think) I’m not hopping, and that’s what counts, right? Definitely feels more under control and sustainable.

So here’s my question… Each thing had a faster speed that was sloppy and a slower speed that sounded and felt better. Do I force myself to work at the faster speeds? Or do I stay with the slower ones, with lots and lots of reps until they speed up naturally on their own?

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#2

I think this is a great starting point! It’s normal for it to feel a bit random / uncontrolled at first, you’ll get there :slight_smile:

I would just work at a variety of speeds without spending hours on each. You’ll probably find that all the speeds feel slightly different, but you may also find that they all feel better and better as you keep at it!

And maybe you can start incorporating some musical ideas into this :slight_smile:

#3

What pick are you using? Have you experimented holding it closer to the tip of your thumb as opposed to the joint?

Also, just to see if there’s a difference, have you tried picking “wide” enough to touch adjacent strings? It looks like you might be cutting the movement short to ensure you don’t hit them.

#4

It’s a Jazz III. (Just for fun I’m gonna try some Dunlop Big Stubbys, coming from Amazon soon.) I think you’re talking thumb overhang, right?

Yeah - I just moved the pick towards the thumb tip; good call, I feel more control now. I think it even helps with forearm rotation. The notes are more even now. Hey, Tommo - sign this guy up! :wink:

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#5

These are all great and the obvious next step from your original “breakthrough” video. What’s nice is not only can you still do it, which is what I think of as “replication”, but you’re also seeing improvement.

You can see that the 112bpm take is the same motion as the 120, but it looks and sounds smoother once you get it going. This is pretty much the visual depiction of what it means to start fast and sloppy and get marginally slower and cleaner. You don’t want to slow down so much that the motion is different. You just want to slow down a small amount to where you can tell the efficiency is roughly the same, but you can now see and feel some small improvement.

The string switching clips are also cool. These look good. You’re doing the string changes, and it’s reasonably smooth. That’s a big step. I’m not familiar with @tommo’s sixes etude. Is it open strings only? Because I always did co-ordinated left hand with this kind of playing, never just open strings. I’m not saying it can’t work, but I would definitely include both hands so you can learn hand synchronization. That’s one thing that single-escape evens type patterns are great for.

FYI the 92bpm clip is starting to become a different motion — it’s almost entirely wrist. Your motion in the other clips and in the case study is a mix of wrist and forearm, like a motorcyle revving type motion. That’s why the “wiggle zone” moves. Notice the wiggle zone is much quieter in the last clip. Absolutely nothing wrong with wrist motion, it’s perfectly fine. I’m just pointing this out because if this motion feels different to you, there is a reason why it does.

It can be a little confusing when you flip-flop between motions in the early stages of learning something. But the more you know about the techniques, the more conscious you can be in recognizing what is happening when you flip between them, and the less confusing it will be why certain attempts look and feel different.

Nothing wrong with wrist motion, if you decide you like that better, you can go with that. Or you can keep the door open to both. Lots of doors you’re unlocking for yourself here.

Nice work.

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#6

I should have made that clear; his etude is in fact two hands (I think it sounds like a standard Yngwie run) but I was advised by another CTC poster, a few months back, to work on each hand separately and then synch them. I was actually getting ready to put the hands together, but on another lick, I’ll try it your way of using both hands from the beginning.

I’m glad you pointed this out. I gotta learn how to look at my own vids more carefully… So I slowed down to 92bpm from 112, and ended up with a different motion than what I was aiming to use - it’s probably important to understand that when you slow down as you describe, even if just by a little, the ‘target motion’ may actually change.

So for any other noobs following in my zig-zag footsteps… Tommo recorded his etude at 120bpm (it’s sextuplets, so that’s like straight 16ths at 180). I set a sort of intermediate goal for myself of 80bpm, and 100bpm further down the road (6s at 100 = straight 16ths at 150; not quite ‘shred,’ but plenty fast for the fastest licks in John Mayer tunes, for example, that I’d like to play).

But now I see that 80 & 100 are going to take me on a wrist-only detour. Like you say, theoretically, it could work. But I’m definitely feeling like a USXer and not a downstroke escaper at this point. Plus the forearm-wrist blend feels a good deal more natural/comfortable to me than wrist alone.

Seems to me I’ve been mapping out a route that isn’t going to take me to my chosen destination (and @Troy, you’re probably holding back the I-told-you-so with all your might;). If I want USX with some forearm, I’ve got to work on it at a fast enough speed that it remains USX w/some forearm.

[I’ll try not to be too stubborn about using forearm. Unlocking multiple doors, like you say, is part of the journey, and wrist-only is another legit ‘door.’ But I hope I’m right about this… a big take-away for me, reading other peoples’ threads - not least of all @RobertFlores’s recent one - is that when you’ve got a mechanic that’s working, think twice before you ditch it.]

Oh man… back to the drawing board! (But I’m sure glad to be hearing this now rather than in 3-6 frustrating months from now.)

#7

Sorry if I’m not explaining. You’re doing fine. Wrist motion is great, there is nothing wrong with it and some of the best players of all time use it. Further, the wrist motion you’re using in the slower clip is still USX so if that’s what you want there is no issue there either. Although there would be no issue if it were DSX or DBX or whatever. These are all useful and valuable.

All I mean to point out is just how much untapped potential there is in your technique. You haven’t explored it like this before, and now that you are, every stone you overturn seems to reveal another awesome technique you can already do and potentially choose to develop.

This is how I learned multiple motions, by recognizing them when they happen (eventually!) and learning to do them on command. It only makes you better in the long run. This flip flopping and confusion is going to happen, there is no way to avoid it. So you may as well be aware when it does rather than just confused by it.

As far as which motion you work on now, I would use whichever one works best. If you continue to see the wrist one pop up, and eventually learn to tell them apart by feel and activate them deliberately, that’s great. You still can’t activate any of these motions at the fastest speed with smoothness for longer stretches, so keep trying different things and see if that ability increases. If it does so, and it does so with one motion more so than another, that’s great — use that one.

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#8

I regret that this is like my signature line by now, but: ‘I’ve gotta ask the obvious, because whenever I don’t I get in big trouble’…

I’m shooting for Tommo’s Sixes thing at minimally 100 (recorded at 120). That’s straight 16ths at 150, and I’ve seen it said here that DBX has that kind of speed capability. So I get you that I could develop a DBX/wrist-only motion to get there. But…

I’m guessing that like a lot of people at my level, I really want to develop a single-escape motion - cuz DBX isn’t gonna cut it for the outro solo in Sultans of Swing (and many others like it). [I’m actually quite interested in DBX for stuff on acoustic guitar - but one thing at a time.] As for the wrist… What you’ve said in the past resonates, viz. that you go with your best move. Since fast wrist-only seems often to go with DSX, and DBX feels foreign to me, I’m feeling like wrist-forearm is the better way to go.

So I’m trying to stick with USX, and figure out the enigma of how to play something that’s, well, too fast for me to play!

This is what I came up with:

  1. Bring the speed down as low as I can, but where the right hand still has the correct, single-escape motion. (Probably around 100bpm) 2) Play a steady stream of notes on an open string with the right hand. 3) Every few seconds, try laying down the six note pattern with the left hand. At first it’ll be ugly, but keep at it until increasingly it synchs up with the right. 4) Once I’ve got a clean, fast 6-note lick with good USX mechanics on one string (no hopping, no DBXing), work on a second string in much the same way until I’ve got a clean/fast 12-note lick. 5) …and so on until Tommo pins the vaunted :heart:on this post.

[As for overthinking… Broken record here again, but I’m capable of devoting hours upon hours to something hopeless - I did that for 3+ years! Willing to experiment and struggle, but I’ve got to have some clarity on procedure. Sorry to be a noodge, but I think you understand;)]

#9

I might be misreading, but it sounds like you’re implying that wrist motion is for people who want to do DBX, and your other motion is for people who want to do USX. This is not the case. The wrist can do all escape styles. Forearm and forearm+wrist is most commonly a USX motion, as it is in your case. But I have a forearm-wrist motion that can do any escape, so there are lots and lots of possibilities exist here. If that’s not what you’re saying, apologies.

Either way, planning or thinking about what kind escape you’re doing is not really super relevant. For now, you’re taking your lead from the motions you have, and fitting phrases to that. You have two motions currently, and they’re both USX: wrist+forearm, and wrist. That’s all you need to know. Match them up with USX phrases and see if you can get some left/right hand sync happening at the various speeds.

#10

You are not allowed to play Sultans of Swing with a pick, let alone with DBX! Lol

Seriously, why wouldn’t dbx work on that?

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#11

I was going from memory, so I looked into it. You’re right; there’s a bunch of 16ths in the last solo, but at ~145bpm, that should be doable with DBX. So bad example, but my point was that there are fast runs in a lot of solos which probably wouldn’t qualify as “shred” but are too fast for DBX. Given my musical goals, that’s why I’m trying to stick with single-escape for the now.

And @Troy, right, looking back at the Primer, I see now that wrist-only isn’t limited to DSX. I’ll just start gyratin’ and not worry so much about nomenclature.

Still working to put all this together, so thanks for your patience. (Chet Atkins gave out honorary CGPs; yours would have to be more like a PhD!) What I was most interested in is knowing about my five-step outline - have I understood how to put together the various CTC concepts (best fast-motion; start-with-fast; chunking) to give myself a shot at moving forward…?

#12

What’s the five-step routine? Apologies, I’ve gotten a little lost. I’ll just repeat myself - get two-handed USX phrases, play the phrases. Ping pong around at various tempos to see what it feels like and how many notes you can get clean. I seriously would not try to put together any more of a “program” than that right now. Just play the phrases and record a few once you have them working a little.

#13

Also, I really wouldn’t worry about speed limits. I can do patterns at 200bpm that include occasional single notes on a string, like ascending / descending fours. Probably some of those pickstrokes are double escape, but not all of them. It’s not a thing I really try to micromange. Whatever motions get the job done is whatever motions get the job done.

#14

Not that it matters, perhaps, but like @PickingApprentice mentioned – aren’t those played without a pick? And with pull-offs and hammer-ons? At least if you’re going for Knopfler’s sound and approach in recreating the solo.

#15

Small chime-in: I would avoid thinking “this particular line won’t be possible with this particular motion at this particular speed.” Just practice naturally to play what you want to play, and when you hit a roadblock, use Troy’s research to troubleshoot what might be a hindrance.

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#16

It’s a tough balance between not overthinking/wrongly assuming (“this line won’t work w/this motion at this speed”) on the one hand, and becoming a more conscious, thinking player - i.e. what CTC teaches - on the other. Like a tightrope! But I hear you.

(For sure about Knopfler’s three fingers; again, I was more talking just about speed, but I see that I need to mind my examples around people w/you guys’ knowledge of players;)

Sorry for the confusion, @Troy; this is what I meant:

  1. Bring the speed down as low as I can, but where the right hand still has the correct, single-escape motion. (For me, probably around 100bpm)
  1. Play a steady stream of notes on an open string with the right hand.
  2. Every few seconds, try laying down the six note pattern with the left hand. At first it’ll be ugly, but keep at it until increasingly it synchs up with the right.
  3. Once I’ve got a clean, fast 6-note lick with good USX mechanics on one string (no hopping, no DBXing), work on a second string in much the same way until I’ve got a clean/fast 12 -note lick.
  4. …and so on until it smokes

Seems I’m not far off. Correct me (please!) if I’m wrong, but I think conceptually it’s starting to click.

Trying to start-with-fast
#17

I actually don’t like this outline.

Don’t go as slow as you can. You don’t know what correct is yet, so how can you tell what the lowest speed you can go is? Go down only a very small amount from your fast attempts, whatever small amount causes it to feel smoother and get a few more notes right. You can always bounce around or speed up / slow down as you do this, to find these little differences. It doesn’t need to be super rigid. This is one reason I don’t use a metronome for this. I don’t know what tempo to type in, and I don’t want to be locked to one tempo anyway.

And I don’t like the open strings thing and then jumping in with the fretting hand. What’s the point of that? Just play the phrase and judge its smoothness and correctness.

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#18

Always surprised, often frustrated, but never disappointed I asked;) Thanks for the honest appraisal. Okay, I’ll get to work on what you described…

#19

Just to be clear, I definitely don’t want to be the dictator here, or stifle any ideas. I understand that I can potentially have the effect of doing that because my name is on the forum. So apologies!

My main concern here is that, if I understand you correctly, this outline you’ve come up with is before actually doing any playing or testing. So it’s based on assumptions about what will work or not work, rather than something you experienced that didn’t work, and for which you need to figure out a solution. I’m all for plans and strategies, but you need some raw data to go on. Do some playing, see what happens, adjust from there.

I know you spent years doing some stuff that feels like wasted time, but: (1) Those four years were shorter than the six years I spent when I was first learning before making essentially the same breakthrough you did. And, (2) you know so much more now that there is no possible way you could ever fall into that trap again. Any problems you encounter will be recognized and addressed by you within weeks if not days, given what you now know about how to recognize when things are working and when they’re not.

TLDR get some raw data first by diving in and playing, then see what if anything isn’t work, adjust from there.

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#20

I appreciate the encouragement. I need it after putting pick to string, as you suggest, and… well, you’ll see the bloodbath on my other post.

You’re of course right that planning/strategizing has to be based on some experience or other data. Have informed opinions, not just opinions. The steps I outlined above were coming from me knowing what my limits are presently and puzzling over how to get through and past them. Again, you’ll see it clearly enough in my other post.

I will not give up!! The one thing I think I have succeeded with here at CTC is to plug into that spirit of perseverance.