I agree that sometimes too fast is well, too fast.
But are you saying that you don’t consider EJ a shredder?
I realize that he is stylistically pretty different from what is typically considered a shred style but I still see him as a shredder-type.
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I consider him a shredder but he’s very smart knowing when to do it and like I said before he knows he’s playing about as fast as you really should. If you get up to the levels of speed like Paul Gilbert that’s great too, but not a necessity I think.
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Oh yeah, his sense of melody is ridiculous
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Aye. With regard to perception, EJ seems a great example of someone who doesn’t necessarily play as fast as the next person, but his lines evoke “shred.” The example I find myself referring to is Neil Schon, whose fast lines rip out of nowhere.
Sort of like, when all one’s mountain climbs are 14’ers from 13,000ft, I suspect it’s not quite as exciting as sea level to 10,000ft…
So, yeah, “shred” likely comprises some combination of perceptual contrast. And I think tone and articulation factors into that as well. Nail those elements and we have something beside raw nps to strive for, each in our own way.
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Thanks! I’ve been programming in other industries for quite awhile now and don’t necessarily remember what I told folks dealing with banding in gradient blends on the phone with service bureaus circa 1993, but I can speak to the point generally.
The human eye can only distinguish roughly thirty or so different shades (again, don’t recall the exact studies) of gray when presented with them to compare. Create a fancy blend in a desktop publishing program on screen, and get your dots per inch (dpi) wrong relative to your printed “line screen” (ls), and you will end up with something that looks striped instead of blended when printed. In terms of failure, this approaches “ls equal to dpi” which might look fantastically blended in millions of colors on a computer screen, but which on the printing press would result in only two rectangles, one white, one black! Hence “half-toning” where the dots taken together imply detail in less resolution. (Oh goodness, that’s a lot of jargon! And don’t get me started on the loudness war in audio…)
Basically, the highest resolution produceable doesn’t necessarily equate to what one wants.
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I get what you’re driving at. That’s actually an interesting correlation to guitar playing! Two seemingly different things share a lot of commonality.
All this talk of speed and what have I been working on lately…learning Jeff’s beck’s lines in “People get Ready”. Lol
Talk about a master of phrasing.
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I wasn’t aware EJ ever played over 170.
I think 200+ BPM is musical in moderation. Like doing a sudden ascending scale can be really powerful (Ex: the buildup to the E.T. flying theme)
When I’m practicing, if I hit 200 BPM for a phrase… I don’t ever think… hmmm… I wonder if I can go faster. I just try and clean it up, and maintain it. Most of my practicing is with phrases that are much slower… stuff in the 130-170 zone. That’s the ‘under construction’ speed.
As far as Hyper-picking… I can’t hear anything past about 240 bpm. It really just becomes a rumbling sound. And honestly… almost nobody can reliably sync their picking/fretting past 260 bpm. And even if they can… who could honestly tell? I think John Taylor has said basically the same thing.
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This may seem unrelated, but did you guys see this? Adam gets into some of the science behind the perception of speed in music.
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We need Adam Neely on this forum! Thanks for sharing!
And interesting that the 240 ceiling came up again.
And yeah, having spent countless hours setting delay/slapback/chorusing times, 100ms seemed high from the outset.
Here’s an example of something that I perceive as fast but in reality isn’t. Of course after a few bars he hits hyper speed.
I’m talking about the line at 1:35
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Been awhile since I’d listened to that. I recall a college friend driving me around to shopping malls in northern Ohio looking for the CD the week it was released. 
Definitely has shred moments, and a few of the corollary moments where things are fast but don’t necessarily jump out.
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Yeah, I wore out that cassette pretty quickly. I still love ‘the audience is listening’.
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Right!! This and Surfing with the Alien were a constant in those days.
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I think sometimes something that’s right “in the pocket”, or played with extreme rhythmic authority, can sound faster than something that’s actually faster in bpm terms, if you see what I mean.
That Erotic Nightmares bit is a great example (from 1:35 and on anyway, that sequence still sadly kicks my ass)
The absolute rarities are the players who seem to be able to play dead in the pocket/with extreme rhythmic authority at seemingly any speed (Guthrie, Andy Wood).
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I hear you. I’ve always struggled to be precise with my timing especially when going from something slow, like 8th notes and immediately jumping to 16th or sextuplets. I always overestimate the speed jump and go too fast. Then I have to reel it in…lol☹️
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And it’s not the picking either, it’s the hammers and pulls.
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I guess there are different types of speed out there. For instance, a guy I once played Metal with in the 90’s, could effortlessly play fast, galloping 16th note rhythms on the 6th string at about 260-bpm. You’d think his amazing ability would transfer over to scales, riffs, etc. but it didn’t. In fact, he could hardly clear a 3-note per string major scale at 110-bpm using 16th notes. Then, you got people like Frank Gambale, who don’t have nearly as much of that “single string” type of speed at all. But, nobody would dare call Frank slow, because it’s a different kind of speed that’s based more on coordination, complex note choices, and the element of surprise. Steve Morse is known for his single note arpeggios with alternate picking, but I doubt he could play groups of 4 on 1-string like Yngwie or John Petrucci. I guess the lesson here, is that you don’t necessarily have to be fast to be fast.
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I I think this is an great question and for me I am in the same range- comfortable with 16th notes at 150 and maxing out around 180. I think a good way to look at it would be take a survey of actual songs/compositions and what the tempo/subdivision/notes per second is. Not so much bursts of shred in solos but actual composition tempo. Steve Morse’s Tumeni Notes comes to mind. What I have found is 12-13 notes per second is fast.
I’ll post my survey soon…
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When you say 16th notes at 180, are you talking about some specific lick? Or say, just on one string?
I can totally relate to your observations about speed. I’ve made tremendous improvements but I kind of doubt that I will ever be able to relax much more without dropping the pick while playing much beyond the 150’s. My lines, are not overly simple. But, to be fair, I can burst (4-8 notes) and play in the 160’s and even the 170’s IF, I can do as many takes as I need. Forget, ever doing this standing, or in front of people, or with cold hands.That is something completely different.
I am making assumptions about you and I don’t know you, so these are just observations on my own progress. Perhaps, focus a little on short bursts and see if you can improve your speed. Also, I am now well aware of my strengths [dwps, or uwps] and what I need to do to play my lines faster. For me, that is to hang out on one string for 6-12 notes before crossing to the next string. If picking direction gets off, I will add a PO, or add a note to adjust it. After you come up with lines that fit your playing ability/style I found that it didn’t take long to begin to develop my own way of playing fast. Yes, it is probably like other people’s but I don’t really try to spend time learning another player’s lines because I am better served by creating my own style. Also, I am simply not nearly as good as the people I admire. Also, I hear lines in my head that are way faster than I can play, but I won’t let this stop me from my love of playing. There are so many variables to think about when comparing ourselves to other players. My hand size is average but my fingers are the size of a 7 year old. This creates tension when I need to stretch. My solution is to play those type lines higher on the neck.
Sorry, if I got off the subject. However, I just think it is worth mentioning that we all have different abilities and if we can’t play like the players we admire the most, hopefully, we still will have something to offer our community which will be appreciated by people who are more technically advanced.
I love working to improve my skills, but at my age, I also want to get better at songwriting. Unfortunately, I spend way too much time picking and not nearly enough on rhythm, or creating and developing song ideas to become actual songs.
Keep working at it, analyze what you are doing, know what the path of least resistance is for you and if you have time, keep working to improve the more difficult picking patterns. Never stop working on the harder stuff, but take advantage of your strengths, once you realize what they are.
good luck
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