It definitely depends on the pattern! This particular thread is about smoothing out the single-string picking of a player that can do 200+bpm but not consistently / controllably over long periods. Hence the suggestion to try a more “intermediate” speed of 150, with the implicit understanding that we are not talking about string-skipping triads over 6 strings, but “simpler” patterns like a tremolo or some scalar passages with plenty “notes per string”.
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Incorrect. I’ve been told on numerous Technique Critiques here that if i can’t do it at 140-150 bpm than it isn’t efficient and all my posts were specifically about crosspicking for the most part. So I’d say I’m speaking completely in context.
@RobertFlores I feel like you’re proving yourself wrong here… At no point did @Maboroshi specify that this is about crosspicking technique, and you just said yourself that your posts were specifically about crosspicking technique.
No, you have been corrected about this numerous times in different threads. But you seem very stubborn about this so I’ll not engage with you further about it.
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In response to a comment stating that no one ever said crosspicking at 150bpm was intermediate lol.
This was all covered here.
You’re literally the only one in that thread that suggests lower tempos. That’s my point so what are we debating about? It seems we agree to some degree.
Hey all, I understand that “crosspicking” (a very vague term by the way) is a source of frustration for many guitar players — including myself at times!
But let’s not get off topic here and let’s keep the tone/vibe of the conversation friendly, and most importantly let’s try to help each other out. I think we should absolutely discuss the merits/limitations of different learning methods.
This particular thread was created by Maboroshi, and the intention — I think — is to discuss how to make a basic motion (e.g. applied to a single-string tremolo) more comfortable and reliable. [Obviously, @Maboroshi, please correct me if I got your intention wrong]. In fact it may be worth editing the title to make it a little more specific if you agree.
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Tommo’s understanding is correct, my intent was for the thread to be about possible alternatives to starting with speed for developing your first fast, comfortable motion. I don’t think starting with a double escape motion is recommended anywhere in the CTC literature so I thought the motions discussed being single escape went without saying.
Also in my first reply, the fourth post in the thread, I said:
I thought Robert’s first reply mentioning intermediate motions was referring to single escape motions, since double escape motions weren’t mentioned prior to that.
Thanks for the clarification, and sorry I made you repeat stuff you already wrote!
Well, let’s say this is a multi-layered problem 
A couple reasons why we usually get people started on single escape motions (off the top of my head):
- Tremolo-ing fast on a single note is a very simple instruction to give, and very likely to lead to the discovery of at least one fast motion
- Pretty much 100% of the time, such fast motion is single escape
- We think it’s important that players experience what it feels like to “play fast correctly”. Single-escape licks tend to have the highest hit-rate and are more likely to lead to this experience of “correctness”.
- the same experience of correctness should be sought when learning more “complicated” picking motions (mixed escapes and whatnot)
- Side note: even the best “crosspickers” (e.g. Andy Wood) tend to default to single escape when they play at their fastest. Therefore, it appears they still have a single-escape foundation underneath all their fancy double-escape patterns :D.
- Side Note 2: Molly Tuttle may be an outlier here as IIRC she is double-escaping pretty much every pickstroke in her interview!
That being said, if a player is interested in double escape stuff (Tumeni Notes, banjo rolls & whatnot), they should definitely pursue that too!
EDIT: @Maboroshi this just gave me a weird idea. I know you spent quite a lot of time experimenting with single-string tremolos and single-escape licks. Since you still feel stuck, why not go wild and try something like a fast banjo roll? Again, in this case forget about accuracy, you just want to try and do a very rough version of the motion at tempo. Even if you don’t get a clean banjo roll out of this, I wonder if this might give you the opportunity to experiment with a wider range of motion (since you have to cover multiple strings). Do I remember correctly that your tremolo motion stayed very close to the string at all times, and eventually would get stuck on it?
EDIT2: another option along the same lines (wider range of motion) is to try and do a 2-string tremolo (basically a mini-strum).
Let me know what you think!
By the way, the discussion of advantages / disadvantages of different tempos for “learning double escape” is definitely an interesting one, we can create a separate thread for that 
[I’ll do it later unless someone opens it first]
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What kind of tempo would you start at for the banjo rolls?
When I’ve done rolls or similar 1nps patterns before I kept hitting the adjacent strings and it was more of a mini strumming motion centred on the string I was actually trying to hit. I’ll give it a go when I can play again though (arm started hurting about a week ago and I want to make sure it’s 100% better before I practice).
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Oh no I hope you recover soon!
For this experiment I wouldn’t even use a metronome, and also I would not worry about hitting wrong strings. I was thinking of these examples (banjo rolls and multi-string tremolos) as a way to “trick yourself” into making slightly bigger picking motions, to see if that helps resolving the “start-stop” issue.
If you end up nailing a banjo roll as a side-effect, I wouldn’t complain
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No luck with the banjo rolls or 2 string tremolos. I’ve been at it for several weeks, trying different patterns, pick grips, anchor points, etc. The result is always something like this:
Same start/stop problem, I can’t get through the strings and my arm locks up from wrist to shoulder.
Thanks for trying! Yes I can see that the start-stop issue is appearing in more or less all your attempts at fast picking.
If I remember correctly, this is however not the case with your left hand. Have you already experimented with picking left-handed? Sure, it’s annoying to start from scratch but if that helps you get rid of the start-stop problem chances are that in 6 months you’ll have better chops that your right-handed self.
EDIT: Miles is an excellent example of a RH player who went lefty and got great results. Not sure what motivated him to do that but I think we can’t argue with the results
I spent a month trying to switch over once and I’ll do it sometimes to kind of ‘reset’ my right hand during a practice session but I’m not really any better at it than when I started. I’ve never had a problem fretting though. I don’t know how much practice would be considered ‘giving it a fair shot’ for something as big as switching to left handed playing.
Still lurking the forum and working on this. I think I’ve gotten better at the banjo rolls since they’re not stopping outright anymore and the motion looks relatively flat.
I’m not hitting the strings accurately but the upstrokes and downstrokes feel fairly consistent. I’m playing an acoustic with a leg rest in the classical position now since it seems to help a bit with my arm tensing up, though it’s more of a workaround than a solution. I’m still getting a very unhealthy feeling tension throughout my whole arm and into my upper back / trap area. I’m also getting some pain in my elbow that persists after I stop playing, but I’ll wait until that subsides fully before I work on this again.
I’ve seen the concept of ‘background tension’ coming up more and more recently on the forum and I think it might the root of the problem for me, but other than playing from a neutral position where possible I don’t know to fix it. It’s present in all my playing but it’s worse with single escape motions like this:
In these clips my hand is touching the bridge, but it’s not resting on it. It’s being suspended from a very tense feeling elbow which in turn is being held in place by my upper arm tensing up. I’ve tried letting my arm rest at my side then bringing it to the guitar with as little tension as possible, but it still feels like a lot. Even with a much thinner electric guitar, my whole arm is tense just holding the guitar in the playing position.
Nice work! This is a big improvement over the December post. Just a couple points that might help:
Maintaining your basic playing position should not be fatigue-inducing. An audience-perspective video of the way you are set up will help get a look at what you’re doing. However, just off the bat, most wrist styles use a bridge anchor. If I try to do wrist without that I get gassed pretty quickly as I imagine you are. Is there a reason why you’re not resting on the bridge?
USX and roll pattern playing are different animals with different overall forms/motions. They are not really compatible (oversimplification alert) and trying to learn both when you have neither could be confusing. I would choose one battle to fight. The USX clip is more problematic so I’d try to keep the form in the roll clips, which we now call “mixed escape” form.
Your grip is more of a classic downward pickslanting setup and is causing garage spikes on upstrokes in the roll playing. Instead, mixed escape playing in general wants a zero-degree pickslant. A three-finger / middle-finger grip, often pad to pad, is usually what matches with the arm position you’re using, so I’d try that.
I know there have been issues getting basic motion happening even on a single string. But I would still prioritize that. What does that look like currently? Can you get any continuous power output (speed and/or volume) on a single string or is that still intermittent?
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Thanks for taking another look at this!
Just to clarify, you mean ‘Keep the more pronated form from the mixed escape clips, but prioritize getting a working motion on a single string instead of the banjo rolls’?
I’m not even fully sure what it means to ‘rest on the bridge’. My understanding is that it means something like ‘keeping the hand at the bridge with the minimum required tension and pivoting from a set point of contact between the two’. The bridge isn’t under the hand so it doesn’t support it against the pull of gravity other than maybe a little bit of friction between the two, so it’s not really ‘resting’ there.
What I’ve noticed in my own playing is that when I start picking, I tense my whole arm up like a kid would do if he was trying to make his biceps look bigger. My wrist feels like it’s rigidly held up at the bridge, superficially contacting it, but not really interacting with it any meaningful way.
It’s still very much intermittent. Some days it works better than others but there’s been no long-term improvement.
I’m going as fast as I can here and trying to accent the first of every 4 notes. I’m also using the more pronated setup from the roll clips instead of the supinated setup with the side of the hand on the bridge. I can see my elbow is moving but I don’t know how to stop it. I also noticed the accents are almost non-existent. It’s like my brain sends to signal to play the note harder and the hand just doesn’t do it.
First impression is that this is the smoothest and “most continuous “ picking we have heard from you so far.
I think that’s nice progress and you may be onto something:)
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Picking motion itself actually looks pretty good. I would not bother with USX patterns like the double picking stuff in the clip because to do that correctly uses a slightly different form.
More generally, you’ve described an inordinate amount of pain and discomfort in your overall form and that is priority number one and needs to be addressed. I really wouldn’t do any significant amount of playing with this much discomfort happening until you can figure out why.
When I play, I tilt the guitar body a little, so it does rest a little gravitationally. Check out the shots of Yngwie’s Strat on this page, and of course the shots of Wes Montgomery who used a great deal of this type of tilt. When you do that, even a little, you will note bridge contact without having to force it. So you can try some of that:
What’s going on upstairs in the traps and shoulder, are you doing anything with those that they would be tensing?
Many acoustic players will rest the bicep on top of the lower bout. This removes muscular output from the upper body equation, you’re just laying on the guitar. Stubby-armed among us (me) can’t do this, because I can’t reach the strings at that point. But it looks like you can reach. Are you resting on the bout currently or above it? If not try that and see if that feels more relaxed.
Another place I would look is the grip. Hand/finger anatomy can be pretty variable but if I try to suspend the middle finger like in your clip, those muscles get burned out. A gentle curl uses some energy, but less than suspending. Totally slack grazing on the body is the least fatiguing option but not appropriate for all styles because the fingers hit the strings. Are you suspending or slack grazing?
TLDR get rid of anything that’s working that doesn’t need to be.
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