Where do i start with Crosspicking?

Playing Technique
#15

If you’re crosspicking then I don’t think it will make a difference on the technical front however musically you might find you have a natural preference for one or the other depending on the part you’re playing,

In 8th/16th/32nd note sections I like to play downstrokes on downbeats because it generally feels more musical to me. I’m currently trying to learn Andy Wood’s “ShrednecK” (albeit no where near his speed) and the intro has a sequence of rolls that mix 8th and 16th notes and while most of it is cross-picking there are cases where it feels more natural to hit two down strokes in succession where they fall on the 8th notes and kind of almost “air-stroke” the in between upstrokes to maintain the 16th note feel. For me that gives a more musically rhythmical feel to the picking.

On the other hand a succession of triplet rolls feels more natural for me to go with a strict alternative approach but that means the start of each triplet alternatives between down and up strokes

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#16

There is a Pat Metheny book called Guitar Etudes and it is full of exercises, some of which have a fair amount of crosspicking in them. You can check out a sample of the book on Amazon.

There is a video of Pat warming up and playing some exercises:

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#17

Have we, as a community, kind of hijacked what is and isn’t cross picking? I understood it to be the adaptation of banjo and mandolin rolls (mostly 3 string) for guitar, but it seems like at present there’s a mechanical requirement/disclaimer being applied that I’m yet to get my head around.

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#18

Yeah… agree with this. I kinda wish we would use another term that to describe the pick motion, rather than the type of music… but I think its too late… everyone seems to be using this term now. But maybe Troy has something up his sleeve… he may have some new terms for the different approaches here… I vote for the ‘Troy-picking’

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#19

Then again… I think ‘Hamsterpicking’’ has a nice ring to it.

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#20

Yes I somewhat agree as well because we are tending to talk about this as being an alternate picking technique but some “cross pickers” are not strictly alternate picking. They may pick a three note pattern using down-down-up strokes or down-up-up strokes depending on what strings they are moving between.

Having said that players that are extremely competent in traditional crosspicking (like Andy Wood) are taking the same technique and applying it to “non-standard” patterns across more than 3 strings creating interesting arpeggios or patterns that mix multiple strings with any combination of notes per string whilst maintaining a strict alternate picking approach.

Coining a new term makes sense. “Hamsterpicking” has an original ring to it or maybe “shrednecking”? :slight_smile:

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#21

I understand what you’re saying @Troy about not wanting to put out info until you and the team fully understand the motions and mechanics. However, perhaps a place to begin would be to clearly show the difference between ‘good’ and ‘bad’ cross picking technique, like where cross picking crosses the line and becomes string hopping.

When I first recorded my picking, I noticed each pick stroke was curved (the pick was above the plane of the strings on each pick stroke). Based on what I’d gleaned from CtC and pick slanting, this appeared to be inefficient, so I started working on DWPS at about 2 weeks ago. I certainly feel like my picking is more consistent, and I’m definitely making some speed gains, but I’ve got a long way to go.

Reading through some other threads, I noticed others players mentioning that they hit a speed wall with what I assume is a similar curved picking technique to what I was using. I think it would be helpful for some visual explanations of what cross picking is and isn’t.

Apologies if this has been covered, but I’ve searched the site, and haven’t found a whole lot of info on cross picking yet.

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#22

I think the idea of inefficient vs efficient isnt a function of curved or straight… as much as it is a function of using the same muscle/joint in two different directions for one stroke. As soon as you do this… you’ve kinda halved your potential.

One of the ‘symptoms of this two-direction in one stroke’ is the hopping (I call pecking). Kinda like extending and flexing your wrist to do a complete doorknock for one stroke… sure… itll clear the string on both sides… but itll make a bit of a hop… and slow you down.

So doing an efficient cross-pick means eliminating this… by using a careful combo of mechanics to create a curve. But that combo isn’t the same for everyone here. Some people use a lot of forearm rotation… others use more of the wrist ‘fling’… some use a lot of finger movement… others (like myself) use the kitchen-sink method (combining pretty much everything). And its hard to say who’s method is better… I think its similar to pick-slanting where there are lotsa variations… were just kinda finding this out now.

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#23

Appreciate the response, and I "sort of’ understand, but I know it would really help me to have a visual representation demonstrating the incorrect form and the correct form.

Just like DWPS and UWPS can be done differently by different players, we still have visual representations to show us what it is and what it isn’t. Maybe I’m just more of a visual learner. :wink:

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#24

I’m sure Troy is cooking up something. I’m getting a tripod this weekend… and I’ll setup my getto magnet… so I’ll try and make something showing my older form compared with my newer form… maybe it’ll help.

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#25

It wouldn’t surprise me it that’s one of the many balls Troy has in the air!

If you can record something, it would definitely be helpful to see the differences.

#26

Have you watched the Albert Lee interview? Take look at chapter 4 for instance (all of the chapters if you want a deeper understanding). That covers a lot of what you’re searching for, IIRC.

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#27

Haven’t watched it yet, but I will this afternoon!

Still working my way through the Masters in Mechanics stuff…haven’t gotten to many of the interviews yet.

Greatly appreciate the tip!

#28

That was exactly what I was looking for! Thanks again!

When I searched the site for “crosspicking”, Chapter 6 of the Albert Lee interview came up, but not Chapter 4.

If I’m understanding it correctly, in a VERY basic form, with cross picking in a DWPS orientation, the upstroke is basically the same as DWPS after the the string is struck, but the down stroke involves the curved motion after the the string is struck, as opposed to the same curved motion on both the down and up strokes, without any pick slanting, which is string hopping.

Either way, what I was doing was definitely string hopping. I’m gonna work on my DWPS for a while before I attempt cross picking though! :wink:

#29

Yes, that is also what I got from it. You have a pickslanted setup, but curve away at the ending of the down stroke and beginning of the up stroke.

I have been practicing a little but feel like I’m hitting “the wall” already. From what I gather on the forums, this can take quite a while to nail, so I’ll keep practicing and record some slomo footage for myself ASAP to see what’s going on exactly.

#30
#31

@Troy @hamsterman
Do you still use other techniques like DWPS, UWPS or 2WPS after getting comfortable with crosspicking? Do you mix these techniques?
I imagine it can get confusing trying to decide which technique to use per phrase or even per chunk of notes.
How do you deal with that? Or you use strictly one technique?
It seems like crosspicking is the ultimate technique that would make Dwps unnecessery, is that right?

Im talking more about jazz improvisation, where decisions have to be made on the spot rather than playing licks where you know already what technique works best for a lick.

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#32

Of course. I’ve been doing them for years, I probably couldn’t “turn them off” even if I wanted to. If you want to play the Eric Johnson fives pattern, you’re not going to find a way that’s much easier than dwps. You don’t throw out your jigsaw just because you also own a table saw. Different tools for different jobs.

Here’s the secret, and I’m just going to keep repeating it until everyone understands: in all these picking systems, even crosspicking, the lines have to be “worked out” ahead of time. If you’ve got a complicated jazz line, to use your example, where you have 1 note on a string, then 2, then 2, then 1, then 1, then 3, how are you going to play that “on the spot” if you haven’t memorized the hand movements first? There’s no way. You need to know the number of notes per string, which finger goes with which note, where all the downstrokes are for chunking purposes, what the first pickstroke is on each string, and you have to work on that until it’s automatic. And then, if you want to start that phrase on an upstroke instead of a downstroke, you have to re-learn the whole thing.

When you’re improvising, you’re just connecting together these little memorized units in a different order, with some tweaks here and there, but you’re not making them up on the spot at the level of individual notes. Mechanically, that is just not going to happen.

Crosspicking doesn’t get rid of the need to work out the lines ahead of time. It’s just another system for working out the lines ahead of time!

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#33

Maybe it would be a good idea to practice phrases where you have set number of notes per string, but the actual notes can be different each time?
Its hard to practice licks when blowing through jazz changes like Giant Steps, because you are not playing in a single key and number of notes per string becomes an issue.

#34

Giant Steps is a good example. It is too complicated to solve on the fly. If you haven’t worked it out then you won’t be able to play it. Think about fingering. There are thousands and thousands of choices. You’re not a computer and can’t calculate those possibilities at 150bpm. You need a small library of worked out stuff that you choose from that you can easily rearrange like Legos when you play. Picking is no different. You learn and memorize core movements and then shuffle them around in real time.

Since the learning and memorization part needs to happen anyway, it doesn’t really matter what picking system you choose. The work is the same either way.

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