Why no focus on the fretting hand?

[Drew]

The arguments about thumb over the top of the neck have always been dumb, and have always missed the point. It’s the wrist flex that matters. Whatever gets it straightest is good. That will be different for different phrases, different chords, or different strap lengths, and you position the thumb as necessary, sometimes above, sometimes lower.

I’ve spent a LOT of time thinking about this, as I had some fretting hand RSI issues in college. I actually didn’t really pick up on the way ideal position could change with strap length and neck angle until pretty recently when someone pointed out that Slash actually had a pretty relaxed wrist angle in a “classical” position with his strap slung way down but a sharp neck angle, but focusing on the fairly middle-of-the-road strap height, I think Satriani does this really well:

That should start just before the main solo. Watch Satch’s thumb position as he gets into the solo - he keeps jumping effortlessly between the “classical” position, with the thumb behind the neck, and the “blues” position, with his thumb over and around the neck. With his fairly standard strap height and guitar angle, he’s mostly shifting positions based on how “stretchy” the run he’s playing is - the fast legato stuff where he’s covering a large amount of fretboard real estate tends to find him shifting into classical posture, but when he’s staying more in position or bending notes, his thumb materializes on the top of the neck, where he has a little less wrist angle break. I don’t think it’s a coincidence at all that he’s also a guy who has never really had RSI issues - he alluded to a little bit of trouble when he did The Power Cosmic arpeggios for a guitar magazine, but that was about it.

[Troy]

the fast legato stuff where he’s covering a large amount of fretboard real estate tends to find him shifting into classical posture

I think this is a good example of what we’re discussing here. To me, I wouldn’t call what we’re seeing at 3:22 “classical” posture because the wrist still looks too flexed. This is still demonstrating the problem that classical posture is trying to fix.

This video has some great shots. The poster frame in particular is it. Look how straight that is. So much more comfortable. I get that no rock player is going to get that low with the elbow, right under the neck. But for certain types of lines it’s really the only option.

[Drew]

I think this is a good example of what we’re discussing here. To me, I wouldn’t call what we’re seeing at 3:22 “classical” posture because the wrist still looks too flexed. This is still demonstrating the problem that classical posture is trying to fix.

I think we’re kind of talking about the same thing - at least, I agree that what we’re seeing here is not an overly comfortable wrist angle, when Satriani is using what I’m calling a “classical” thumb position.

The poster shot you have here is perfect - the “classical” hand position is optimized to work in that playing position, and in the rock position requires a fairly steep, not overly comfortable wrist angle that places more stress on the wrist. It DOES allow for wider fretting hand stretches, though.

I guess the part I probably should have stressed is that the “classical” hand position, and I keep using quotes because it’s really only the thumb we’re talking about and not the whole posture, which I get is super misleading in my first post but is the disctinction I’m tryinig to make here, is something Satch is only doing when there’s a technical reason why it makes sense to, and the other 75% of the time is switching back into the more relaxed “blues” position with his thumb over the neck, which makes for a very relaxed wrist angle. So, the “thumb behind the neck” position isn’t an optimal playing position, in a “rock” posture, but it does lend itself well to fairly stretchy legato licks, so what we’re seeing is Satriani, consciously or otherwise, only switching into the less comfortable/more likely to cause long term RSI issues “classical” thumb position when it allows him to do something he otherwise would struggle with, but for the most part remaining in a much more comfortable/less harmful position.

I’m playing fast and loose with terminoligy here, but does that make sense? I know there’s a belief that this “classical” hand position is the most efficient way to play, but as you point out that’s only true when you have the whole package, the thumb, the guitar height and angle, etc. For normal “rock” playing a “blues” position with the thumb wrapped around the neck gives you a much better wrist angle, but also limits you a little on the fretting hand and doesn’t work for certain lines, and (IMO) Satriani is a pretty good example of an optimized solution where he goes back and forth between both where it makes sense.

[Troy]

so what we’re seeing is Satriani, consciously or otherwise, only switching into the less comfortable/more likely to cause long term RSI issues “classical” thumb position when it allows him to do something

Yes totally. And I would like to make the case that we not call this “classical position” because it’s really not the whole system, and what it does is basically add wrist stress, which is the opposite of what classical form is supposed to do.

Honestly, for like 90% of stuff I play, I have my thumb over the top of the neck because it results in the straightest possible wrist. This includes scalar things and single note things. If Joe is doing 3nps-style fingerings in this clip, I’m not even sure that this wrist change that he’s making is even necessary, and there’s maybe an argument that he shouldn’t do it.

I’m sitting here with an acoustic now doing bluegrass stuff and there are very few / almost no instances where I move the thumb anywhere except around near the top of the neck. Sometimes it’s over the neck, like we’re discussing, but more often it’s at the very top but not overhanging, functioning as a hanger for the whole hand. When I move my thumb, I notice I’m doing it to maintain the straight wrist. A little bit forward, a little bit backward. But that’s really it. I can get almost any fingering I need from this general range of thumb positions without going any lower behind the neck. For bluegrass, anyway — Edit: which includes 3nps fingerings at every spot on the fretboard up to the 14th fret.

[Drew]

I mean, you’re right - it’s mostly just laziness, in that “classical” is a lot faster to type out than “thumb behind the center of the neck.” Sorry for muddying the waters!

[a_lieb]

Interestingly, the fingerstyle player/guru Tuck Andress says he doesn’t talk about left hand much, but for the opposite reason as people have been discussing here. He says it’s too complicated to explain, rather than too simple.

Sorry, no info yet on left hand technique except the general notes about staccato. I find it more complicated to break down and a little harder to specifically describe, even to myself.

Granted, Tuck is a solo fingerstyle player who seems to take a perverse pleasure in the most painful chord shapes and awkward multi-line parts (plus other tricks, such as fretting on top of a fret to create a palm-muting-like sound, and shifting positions by switching the fingers on a note while it’s still ringing). But I think there’s an underlying insight there: a lot left hand stuff is harder than the right hand to teach in words, but easier than the right hand to learn unconsciously through practice. So a lot of the players just say “practice, practice practice” and the point is that you’ll get there eventually.

That mainly goes for fretting, though! Left hand ergonomics and hand position are a whole other can of worms–doing the right thing does not come naturally at all, and it is important to study that on an intellectual level to avoid RSI.

[NCASO]

For me LH finger independence seems to be the underlying issue. Fingers legging behind, or falling too fast that disrupts synchronization.

Many top players like Petrucci, Govan, and Vai are advocates of those 4 now chromatic permutations… thoughts?

[PickingApprentice]

Starting with trills with all permutations helped me get a handle on which fingers needed most work - it helps work on the smoothness and even dynamics of both hammers and pull offs. Then you might as well progress to 3nps repeating fragments and then include slides etc…

The thing with legato, is that you can’t drill it too much as you risk injury or just get fatigued- that balance between relaxation, tension and economy of motion is the most important thing.
Overall I find speed is relatively easy to get going, but endurance is a lot harder to increase and maintain.

[Surfpunk]

This is to me the underlying universal dilemma in two handed musical play on any instrument.

Is there such a thing as two “separate” activities “fused” together to create a sound or sounds that are “separate” from one another? Meaning are there two or more distinct activities that become one by synchronization? Synchronizing what exactly? And how is this synchronization accomplished and most importantly Who is the synchronizer(the doer) separate from the synchronization(Krishnamurti anybody!).

This is what I have seen so far about this as far a non speed picking(and fretting) tempos(that’s another story). Picking a string, ANY string, causes the string to vibrate and affects the WHOLE string. This causes the string to take on a different quality while it is vibrating and can be appreciated (as for example) a cycle of say triplet 8ths in a 4/4 bar(1anda 2anda 3anda 4anda). Now if you try and fret chromatic triplets(real simple)1finger2nd3rd(ascending in pitch) on any string the WHOLE nature of the activity changes when you approach a reasonable tempo let’s say “Frenchmans Flat” off of L. Carlton’s “Sleepwalk” LP.
Because the string is especially vibrating up and down fingering or fretting the string becomes very tricky because each finger that is fretted creates a NEW field for fretting than existed before it was fretted, now granted this is slight difference at campfire guitar tempos, but once you reach for the stars any slight change becomes (at least at first) monumental in scope. So that makes four different fields of fretting 1st, 2nd(after first)3rd(after second) and 1st(After 3rd) all of this fretting affected by the string lifting action of the picking ITSELF.

BUT WAIT, the picking is also affected by the tension of the string which changes EVERY TIME a string is fretted with a different finger on a different fret for example, this means that BOTH SIDES(picking and fretting) affect BOTH SIDES at the SAME TIME.

This is my solution so far and it is working:
While I can pick quite easily on any string triplet 8ths in 4/4 time very relaxed at a good fast tempo with a 1.5 mm pick(say the J petrucci black pick), once fretting is involved(legato is no problem at this tempo), the whole project changes as explained. So what I did was use .73 mm flex J iii (fender size), and it worked taking into consideration the picks affect on the fretting and the frettings affect on the pick. Gradually (a few hours), I was able to go to .88 mm and then 1.14 mm on all six strings. The flexing of the pick was instrumental in this approach since the pick did the work while I concentrated on the issues discussed with the fretting hand. I used the thumb over the neck(so called violin style) technique - I thought if it is good enough for Richie Faulkner it’s good enough for me. Hardest by far is the lowest(thickest and closest to the side of the neck string), easiest is the 2nd string from the top string.

One of the points being that pick thickness makes a difference under these conditions(even on different strings!) a BIG difference. I would love to discuss this further.

Hope this helps.

[tommo]

Sorry for interrupting the flow, just a short note to say that this thread has been very useful to me! I now realise I was too fixated with keeping the classical position (hidden thumb).

I am now trying to allow the LH thumb to go where it wants depending on the pattern, and things are feeling much more comfortable, particularly with bends and playing in the high frets

[Surfpunk]

Dude have you seen that Richie Faulkner EMG clip on a warm up pattern with the first three fingers(no pinky needed thank you). His thumb is up over the frets starting from the 5th now matter where he goes with it or what string or what speed. Even the "slow version is tricky because he uses two down strokes top to lower string.

[Frylock]

I think this is a good example of what we’re discussing here. To me, I wouldn’t call what we’re seeing at 3:22 “classical” posture because the wrist still looks too flexed. This is still demonstrating the problem that classical posture is trying to fix.

I think this is a huge point. I think problems around discussion of the merits of “classical” left hand technique largely arise because so many rock guitarists wear the guitar low and often let the neck be pretty horizontal. Aside from the excellent point MAB makes about using the thumb for leverage when bending, it seems like the main criticism I see of “classical” left hand is that due to trial and error with “cool rock guitar guy” guitar positioning, people mistakenly believe that that “thumb behind the neck” automatically requires a highly flexed wrist. And the fact that there are some famous guitarists who successfully pull off “highly flexed wrist” on the fretting hand, despite the fact it’s not ergonimically optimal, probably creates unrealistic expectations for aspiring players about how a similar setup will work for them.

[Surfpunk]

To all who might feel this is true:

Don’t believe the hype, if you respond to that kind of playing by wanting to play it you should. Leverage is a huge issue(how to get it successfully) try pushing in with 1st finger like you are bending the string a little and instead of pulling towards the higher string(with the third finger - or whatever two digits you like) push through the string towards the lower string(this for trilling on one string) after you push for a while then pulling will be much easier. Sometimes upstroke picking(but not sweep picking) is better - or visa versa -(on the downbeat of course). It’s like archery. It can be done this way even on the 6th string but you must be precise or you’ll fret out.

Another thing is often one string will hang up the fingers trying to move to the next string(up or down). Best I found is to do it at the absolute limit of what you are cable of bpm-wise, I use music myself not a metronome( whatever works).

So called hammer-ons are seen as harder than pulloffs this is a mistake.
A pull-off should feel like a hammer-on and a hammer-on should feel like a pull-off. Through this you will see staccato picking(as D. Aldrich calls it-picking all the notes), is more complex than advertised.

[Surfpunk]

Sure, the problem might be 90% right hand and 10% left hand, but the left hand problem does exist.

I think what you have said is absolutely right on, except this issue, it’s got to be about 50/50 in most people who call themselves players- not working musicians - but players. Fretting hand issues are highly underrated.

They might be able to play for a few hours straight once a week, but gigging, four or five nights, rhythm and lead? Not many of these people you describe could cut it for long, unless they were singer song writers, are many of the people you speak of in that category?

[LuckyMojo]

Nice. The Borislav Mitic course is great!

[PickingApprentice]

Sure, the problem might be 90% right hand and 10% left hand, but the left hand problem does exist.

I think what you have said is absolutely right on, except this issue, it’s got to be about 50/50 in most people who call themselves players- not working musicians - but players. Fretting hand issues are highly underrated.

The left hand problem exists, but the real question for me is '“Is the answer out there already?”. In my opinion, the answer is yes, generally (with exceptions for injuries and other physical ailments). I’m no authority on any of this of course (and I’m probably being very ignorant), but there is so much footage of players of all types, using all manner of hand positions - surely there is plenty to learn from that alone???

[guitarenthusiast]

You’re missing a key part of the left hand problem, which is anthropometry, or how the body is structured in relation to the fretboard.

I would put every last dollar I own on the assumption that anyone who claims the “left hand isn’t a big deal” probably has more work to do than they are willing to admit.

I had this same problem years ago. I took lessons from a masters classical guitar student at USC. I realized how wrong I was about subjectivity in left hand fingerings. Truth is, for almost every phrase, there is a superior way to finger it that leads to more accurate and pristine playing. It’s very, very rare that you have two equal options.

The idea that many rock guitarists have - “Just like, use whatever fingers you want maaaaaaaaaaan! it’s like, personal preference!” - is holding a lot of people back.

There are literal seminars and arguments at major programs for classical guitar on which left hand fingerings are superior for certain pieces, on the basis of anthropometry and tension and so on.

Personal example before I forget:

A few months ago I posted a question for Troy that went unanswered on the C major scale, 8th position, pure alternate picking, ascending and descending. For his fingering, he used the third finger on the low E - 13-12-10, fingers 3 2 and 1 respectively. I copied that, no matter what I did, it did not result int he phrase being clean. I practiced for god knows how long. I realized he was using a shorter scale length guitar, which affects fingerings. People act like scale length is minor for the instrument, but when we’re talking 22 or 22.5 versus 25.5, that’s a pretty huge difference. I changed to 4 2 1 and within the span of 5 minuets I had fixed a problem that plagued me for months, and it never occurred to me before then.

I guarantee there could be a Cracking the Code on the left hand.

[Surfpunk]

introduced me to the idea of applying a more violinistic left hand approach than the strict classical “thumb behind the neck always” approach. This puts the neck in a bit of a “cradle” between the thumb and index finger, and the fingers go on more of a diagonal to the frets rather than parallel. It keeps the wrist straighter and the forearm in a more neutral position.

Until very recently(within the last week) I was unable to except this approach because of injury issues. But since I know how to warm up now I was able to explore this approach. I have found that this has paid off in ways I never dreamed of. The leverage gained from that “cradle” with the thumb side of the index finger against the neck with the thumb compressing towards the middle of the hand brings leverage for all kinds of action(big stretches included) with the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fingers.
The thumb doesn’t have to be over the top but has to bring to bear pressure in the middle of the hand toward the ring and pinky.

In fact if you move the thumb towards the index finger the position will look exactly like the pick hand in mirror image. The “fingers go on a diagonal path to the frets” is spot on. It is this tension between the index and thumb especially seen on C profile neck -like the one next to my moniker(a 90’s 24 fret charvel), that leads to the diagonal position and what I suppose would be called a “straight wrist” but that is a by-product of the tension(this is all realized as you play, not before the playing begins).

But once you establish the flow this can be done on thicker necks( I have a dinky strat with a thick neck), were the implications of this are felt more than seen. For now I am just really digging that C profile neck though( you can really “leverage”(pun intended) that shape and with the right kind of legato practice(can work towards tremendous speed and dexterity, especially with 1 34 and 1 23 and so on). This way alternate picking can be approached with much more clarity instead of the “just synch it up approach”

This seems like non explored territory to me. More to say I’ll stop.

[Surfpunk]

Thanks for pointing out this post, I hadn’t read the whole thread, yet.

[PickingApprentice]

For his fingering, he used the third finger on the low E - 13-12-10, fingers 3 2 and 1 respectively. I copied that, no matter what I did, it did not result int he phrase being clean. I practiced for god knows how long. I realized he was using a shorter scale length guitar, which affects fingerings. People act like scale length is minor for the instrument, but when we’re talking 22 or 22.5 versus 25.5, that’s a pretty huge difference. I changed to 4 2 1 and within the span of 5 minuets I had fixed a problem that plagued me for months, and it never occurred to me before then.

So in essence then, you picked fingers that worked better for you… not a million miles away from this…

The idea that many rock guitarists have - “Just like, use whatever fingers you want maaaaaaaaaaan! it’s like, personal preference!” - is holding a lot of people back.

Did it take any special knowledge to make the adjustment? Or was its a lack of experimentation that held you back?