2-string sweeps: one of the hardest DWPS techniques?

Playing Technique
#1

These days I’m liking the DWPS approach more and more (until earlier this year I was mostly doing UWPS/TWPS), as it seems to promote relaxation in my picking hand even at decent speeds.

I am quite happy with my progress on pure alternate picked DWPS stuff, and also on 3-string arpeggios, but I am still struggling with passages combining alternate picking with mini-sweeps. E.g. the (was it Trilogy?) 2nps arpeggios or Eric Johnson’s pentatonic fives can trip me up above certain speeds - typically the problem is timing and/or the pick getting stuck after the first rest stroke. For example in an Am triad:

----------8-------12—
—10-------------------

I would get stuck after the first note, or play the second too early.

I have the feeling that I struggle to switch smoothly between the sweeping and alternate picking mechanics, particularly when the change between the two happens too often.

I was wondering whether this (frequent switching between alternate and mini-sweeps) was a big obstacle also for the seasoned DWPS users of this forum, and if so, what did you do to work on it?

I will post a more detailed playing/blabbering about this in my existing technique critique post (to avoid clogging the forum), but I am also curious to know about other users’ experiences in more general terms.

Thanks!

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#2

Do you mean switching between "down up down up - - - - " stuff and some "down (sweep) down up , down down up " ? Feel free to provide an example (tab, video, audio) so we can try it out !

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#3

This is definitely a thing people complain about, particularly the timing. The truth is even in Eric’s case, the timing is not totally consistent. There is a tendency for the sweeps to mush together.

One solution to sweep timing issues is to try rest strokes. We talk about this in the Teemu and Joscho interviews. Teemu’s suggestion in particular is to do it hands separately so you can focus on making the rhythm of the pickstrokes even.

Then there is the question of physically how the sweep is accomplished, meaning what movement you are using. When you’ve got only one or two notes per string, the picking movement and tracking movements blur together.

It might be helpful to check out an example. Of the things I’ve played, this is one of the more even timing examples, especially the ascending side:

https://troygrady.com/primer/getting-started/chapter-1-the-problem-with-picking/pickslanting-primer-intro-lick/

If you watch this in slow motion, you’ll notice there is rotation on the upstrokes, but not the sweeps. It looks like those are wrist movement. Players like @Hanky_Pooh will often use fingers for the sweep phase as well. That’s probably what Yngwie does, and possibly what EJ does as well - we’d have to look.

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#4

Another I’d add is that I remember filming that take, and it was super loose and easy. You can’t really see that in the footage, and it looks like maybe I’m muscling through the sweeps, but that is totally not the case. Rotate loosely into the rest stroke, let the hand hit the string and stop, and a small push through to the next note.

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#5

@SylvSylv I first will give you an example of someone good at it (Brad Davis, who was also featured in a CTC video)… and later I will post a video of my struggles :slight_smile:

@Troy indeed I suspected that timing perfection on this kind of thing would be hard to achieve, but let’s say that I’d be happy with a 70% Troy/Eric equivalent :smiley: I agree with you that the players you mentioned appear to use fingers for these small sweeps… it seems very different than what they use in many-string sweeps.

PS: I also noticed that for some reason the down-down-up feels easier with 16th notes than with triplets

EDIT: Regarding looseness, I suspected / was mildly afraid you would say that, unfortunately I’ve got used to hitting strings quite hard for many years :sweat_smile:

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#6

First off, awesome clip. I need to learn that.

Are you guys talking about the 2 string stuff from Trilogy Suite? The quality is probably too bad to see anything, but this is me playing it a few years ago.

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#7

Yes. Exactly.
In the cracking the code intro solo the first alternate picking section is fine for me then when u hit the 2 string sweep picking section I slow down to a grind cause whilst I’m ok with sweep picking the like alternate picking sections

14-11-14 is hard!!

Any hints/help would be awesome.

I’m nowhere near the 176 bpm mark. Around 130ish but mainly this is due to the 2 string sweep section! Bahhh

So far I feel Troys knowledge has helped a bunch.

Bill

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#8

If I am not paying attention, it is easy for me to rush the 10 on the B string, but I feel that if I concentrate on getting the whole length of the note, the 8 on the E is on time. The length of the note is controlled by the fretting hand fingers, so that is what needs to stay down longer. I would say, get the first note in the minisweep right and everything else falls into place.
Try focusing on the left hand.

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#9

Yeah man good tip.
I went back to solo and had a good hard look at my timing and noticed I wasn’t doing the proper 16th notes… kind of mushing triplets up…
—15-------11-------15—11----------------15
—--------------14------------14–11–14

when I was going to the 11 on the high E string I wasn’t hitting that note on the down beat… really makes a difference to the feel of the lick plus the timing on the right hand…

with a bit more practise I can definitely get the lick nearly 175 bpm… maybe at least 150ish… which isn’t bad for an old man …

Bill

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