3 finger grip/steve morse technique, injuries?

Playing Technique
#1

Hello!

I’ve been experimenting a bit with the 3 finger pick grip with leading edge and have had tremendous improvement with crosspicking and smoothness of scales at higher speeds and playing in general.

However I’ve read and heared that the technique steve morse uses is bad for the health of the wrist joints, which in my eyes looks similar (not identical though) to the 3 finger leading edge grip setup shown in the reverse dart thrower video. So my question is - is there any truth to that? Does this particular setup increase the likelyhood of injuries?

Personally it feels very smooth and easy, not straining at all, but I don’t really have any medical/physiologic knowledge at all so i can’t judge on my own whether it’s just talk or actually based on ‘‘truth’’.

Sorry if i placed this topic wrong, i’m really unsure whether this should get a new thread or just be put as a comment in the reverse dart speed thread.

#2

I’m curious about this too. Do you have any sources for the following?

Also, I haven’t kept up with Steve but for some reason I thought that his issues were arthritis related. I have no medical background at all but I always thought that’s just an auto-immune thing that may not even be the result of a behavior.

My broad thoughts are that Troy has actually met with medical professionals while researching guitar wrist technique (name me some other guitar instructors who have gone that far :wink: ) and in general Troy avoids anything that feels hard/straining/injury prone like the plague. I’ve experienced nothing but comfort from the Morse setup, just as you’re reporting. It’s hard to think that something that feels easy could result in injury. Anything else (bad typing habits, bad weight lifting technique etc) typically are accompanied by varying degrees of discomfort, which I love to think of as the body’s way of steering us in the right direction.

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#3

In Steve’s case, it could just be decades of live playing taking its toll - the man has picked a LOT of notes. If he’d had issues all along, or starting early on, I’d be more suspicious of the technique itself.

#4

I don’t think it’s a form or technique issue. As Riffdiculous said, if it were the actual technique his problems would have manifested very early on.

EVH used three fingers (lots of folks do)…never an issue any of us saw or knew about with his hands. Hip replacement? Yep…but that dude lived hard when he was young.

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#5

Has he picked Tu Many though???

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#6

Whey Tu Meni.

(characters for the hungry characters devourer)

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#7

I am not aware of any evidence for the pick grip itself being dangerous. But I don’t think we can draw any conclusions from one player becauase they may overtrain, they may have a history of previous injury, they may be using less optimal form or motion, they may be doing something dangerous like pushing through fatigue and strain — there are too many variables.

Keep in mind, the technique isn’t really about the pick grip. It’s about the arm position, and the type of wrist motion you create. The reason why ergonomic mice are designed like that is because they let the wrist move along an axis which is more efficient. That’s why players can reach higher speeds. The pick grip is just how you connect to the strings. These three parts all work together. They should feel comfortable, not strained.

The instructions we provide in the lessons are all based on choosing low-strain body positions that feel easy, and making motions that feel easy while being high performance. These steps might product slightly different results for different players based on differences in individual anatomy. So I wouldn’t try to copy what Steve or anyone else is doing. Just do what feels easy and produces results.

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#8

Was just something i saw here and there, reddit and youtube comments, along with a local guitar teacher.
I thought so too, but i just wanted to make sure since i don’t actually have any knowledge regarding this stuff

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#9

Thank you for the reply :slight_smile:

I suspected that some people wrongfully concluded that the technique (by it self) Steve uses and his injuries are correlated, but as i mentioned i have zero knowledge about this stuff so that’s why i asked here.

I haven’t tried to copy exactly what he does, but more like having a supinated arm position along with the taller hand position the 3 finger grip results in and experimenting from there on. Something i’ve noticed aswell is that when using this position and delibertly trying some elbow movement it feels way less ‘‘strainy’’ on the elbow compared to my usual setup which is always welcoming. I think it’s because it’s not really all elbow but the shoulder/rotator cuff comes into play but that’s a guess.

Anyways, i have 1 more question which has always puzzled me if you have time to answer. When playing in a supinated position and having the pinky heel/side flesh of the hand on the bridge - how do you stop the lowest strings from ringing out when playing something ascending? My own solution has been to have the pinky heel on the guitars body above the lower strings and then gradually follow with the side of my hand to mute. When trying the ‘‘bridge’’ version though i try to bring the hand forward a little bit towards the neck after playing at the A string but i find it super difficult to consistantly make it sound clean.

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#10

In terms of evh vs Steve, I think Eddie had far better hands for 3 finger grip, didn’t have to force the grip, Steve from what I see has less articulation vs Eddie and likely had to grip harder to make 3 finger work.

And as far as I know Steve had issues only with his right? Which is the one doing nonstop back n forth, I think theres something to it. I know in my own practice 3 finger grip acually makes my hand sore if I keep with it for a few weeks. It’s just not a natural grip for me. I have to grip too hard. And it’s not even hard honestly, but it is gripping beyond my natural range. And that plus the constant back n forth is unneeded tension. With index n thumb I can hold the pick with almost no muscle contraction. It’s the way my hand naturally rests.

#11

Oh, i actually found the opposite with the 3 finger grip and thumb index compared to you. I find it more relaxed and easier to make a more aggressive pick attack with the 3 finger grip. Maybe it has to do with variations of the technique or anatomy?

#12

I think it’s anatomy. Tho ofcourse my opinion on why he got issues with his hand is just me thinking out loud. For me it’s always stressed my hand if I do it too long, do you play three finger as your basic technique?

I can only assume forcing your hand to clamp down in a slightly un natural way will do something negitive over time. I’ve got a lot better with three finger over the years, but theres still stress for me, my thumb just can’t flex that far without being at the limit of my thumbs range. And doing non stop alternation on top of that for decades, it’s just intuitively seems excessive. Probably builds a lot of inflammation over time.

I wonder if he has commented on this himself?

#13

Me either besides my own interest, as far as I know constant inflammation can cause arthritis tho.

He was using the index n thumb for awhile to do more forceful alternate picking stuff.

I Like his older video on it :grin:

With the attack, I think thats because the pick is more parallel to the strings, lets it release the string faster. Gives it that snap.

A sharp pick will do the same thing for index n thumb

Btw, Seeing Paul there reminds me of his comments, I swear he said three finger stressed his hand too much n why he playing index now.

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#14

There’s definitely a strong relationship between all factors. Pointy-ness/roundness of the pick, how supinated, anatomy etc.

I’ve heard Troy say that when he (i.e. Troy) does a very supinated position, he can’t even reach the strings unless he holds the pick between the thumb and middle fingers. So in that case it’s out of necessity. The supination helps achieve the more efficient Reverse Dart Thrower posture. Someone like Paul Gilbert has massive hands and he probably gets a fair amount of that axis yet can still easily reach the strings with an index and thumb grip.

My fingers are sort of gangly and I can supinate and still reach the strings with an index/thumb grip, but i think the 3 finger grip is still more comfortable.

Right, that could differ from player to player though. My thumb is long enough that I don’t feel any stress or tension build up when i do it. It would be interesting to ask Steve if he felt like he sacrificed any ease to do what he does. It seems (from that very cool older video you linked) that he “put the music first”. He wanted to play complex angular lines and went with the setup that allowed that to happen. Did this come at the expense of a little comfort? If so, sure - playing that way for decades would be no good.

I just know for me, it seems like a super comfy setup. Everyone should make sure whatever they choose feels good, or beware lol!

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#15

I wish I had big thin fingers or a flexible thumb lol, been hard to give up the way I want to play vs what works. For me* lol

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#16

Well, one of things I love the most about Troy’s work is that there are so many options. All of them have tons of potential. Sure, they each have a set of considerations/implications/limitations but all the “good parts” each motion and/or setup allows give us the possibility of effortless playing at elite speeds. There’s so much usable stuff we can do with what we’ve each got.

One thing the Morse setup doesn’t allow for is complex hybrid picking. You can still do a little with the ring finger I guess, but it’s quite limited compared to a more traditional index/thumb grip. And again, that’s situational. Morse is so beastly at alternate picking he may be able to play most hybrid type of licks just picking it all. The point is, every technique has something it’s lacking. We’ve gotta either focus on the positives of what our technique offers, or else be like me…dabble in everything but overall sort of suck lol

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#17

Hey thats my trick lol

You’ve become enlightened, but you didn’t live your life lol

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#18

It’s not my basic technique no. My basic technique would be a flat closed hand with the pick between index and thumb with almost no space inbetween the thumb and the index finger. I’ve only experiemented with the 3 finger grip a bit on and off since the reverse dart thrower video :slight_smile:

#19

String hopping has a lower threshold for overuse injury compared to efficient picking, but string hopping can be done with any grip or motion.

Doing more practice than your body can tolerate will cause injury, but that will only happen if you push through and ignore pain.