You’re totally right, I probably relaxed my hand when I took the photo! Ending up in a more angle pad position. When I actually play in this position my finger and thumb are very much pad to pad. Some sort of glossary of terms would be very useful. As you’ve said there’s so many ways of describing these things and getting everyone on the same page would make the whole troubleshoot/teaching process far easier 
It’s hard to describe pick grip without any photo. It’s too many degrees of freedom, so it’s not easy to make a classification that wouldn’t be too complex and would be descriptive enough at the same time.
I experimented a bit with upstrokes last day. Long story short - it looks like if you don’t want to radically change you way of playing then you have to use ‘cheats’. By cheats I mean any approach that makes pick stroke easier. I tried increase “lean” angle towards the neck - it works. I tried to increase “edge picking” angle - it works too.
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Hey Guys! I messaged @Troy earlier today and didn’t realize that my question was asked already here. I didn’t have the right terminology i.e. leaning and glad I found this post so much. Nice to see that upstrokes have been discussed. Mine aren’t ghosted but they are weak and sometimes slow me down because I feel I am fighting them. Seems like an odd topic but that’s the beauty of CTC, we try to figure out all the nuances of guitar… So like @AndrewWhitfield my upstrokes are stuck on some alternate picking passages using DWPS. Especially the low E and A. Stinks!
To clarify what lean is, if you could post some updated photos or even a short video on what lean LOOKS like it would be great. Let’s say the pick is parallel and horizontal to the strings. Neutral would be the best term? Does lean mean the pick stays on its horizontal access and the point of the pick either points towards the bridge or the headstock? Again, staying on the horizontal plane? DWPS UWPS we know, and edge picking goes 45 degrees, I can’t imagine what else lean could be?
I’ve attached some photos my exaggerated DWPS movement only, Edge picking only, DWPS WITH Edge, and what I THINK is the lean. Note again everything is exaggerated for the photos and yes I need a tan desperately lol.
Best to everyone and look forward to hearing from you all.
***2 Things I forgot to add- 1st, if I think I am right on what lean is, that implies we are striking the string using the sides of the pick? Not the point directly? That’s why I had my pen at the point of possible pick to string contact. #2. Again if I am correct, I find that I am using a headstock lean when DWPS, anyone else?
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A hastily put together video for you. I’ve also dropped some photos below to highlight lean. From you last photo it looks like you are using a bit of neck lean, in my opinion. I find this lean angle to produce more “stickiness” on upstrokes when using the edge picking direction where you bend the thumb (as opposed to the Benson style) than bridge lean, i think because the pick hooks onto the string on the upstroke whereas with bridge lean the string rolls off the edge of the pick. Shout if you have more questions.
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Quick question…does bridge lean mean the butt of the pick faces the bridge or the tip of the pick faces the bridge?
And does one have a benifit vs the other or is it more of a comfort thing?
Butt off the tip towards the bridge. I find bridge lean to be preferable for fast playing but I suspect it is a comfort thing - I just find I get less snag in that orientation.
@mr_fisch93 Great! That’s what I thought. I think this might be the missing link for why I’m not playing my fastest a lot of the time.
This may have been covered before, but any scientific reason this works better than a more neutral position w no lean?
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Hey mate! THANK YOU VERY MUCH for the detailed photos and video for all of us to learn from. Your explanation of lean makes total sense now. I just picked up my guitar for a couple of minutes and I agree I am using slight neck lean. Correct me if I am wrong, but using lean incorporates more of the sides of the pick instead of the tip? Hence a smoother downstroke and upstroke as the tip of the pick is not in direct contact? You said that neck lean may produce more stickiness when using edge picking w/ bent thumb. How so? Because the tip of the pick is making more direct contact? It may be academics but I enjoy the thought process and analysis. *Side note I have been working on using my thumb for slow picking where you keep it straight against the string, play a downstroke, the thumb bends towards the bridge, and then comes back up. I can now see that has a neutral to bridge lean in that technique. *
If you look at my DWPS technique post, I have been struggling to get one part of the Sold My Soul solo ala Zakk Wylde lick up to tempo. It is 5 7 played twice on the low E, repeats on the A, and then same on the D ending with 7 9 twice on the D. Aside from Troy awesomely correcting me on my DWPS, another big issue I feel has been my upstrokes. Either I have been playing them too soft because they get stuck and I want to avoid that happening as a crutch or my timing is off because I am anticipating the upstrokes. Then it falls apart lol.
One thing I admire about Zakk is how he can just attack the strings with such force and overall his notes are super clear and accurate. Not an MAB accurate but you get my drift. I wonder if he unknowingly incorporates lean into his picking? Seems some of our fellow brothers here have had success with lean in their smoothness of playing. Zakk even with his “wylde picking” he still gets in and OUT of the strings smoothly. Thoughts?
Hope this isn’t asking too much, could you maybe try at a reasonable tempo how you would play that Zakk lick with a short video? In your video around 1:20 I see DWPS, edge, and almost a neutral lean? For the Zakk lick would you use some edge picking and what kind of lean? Heading early for bed (2am wake up for work), will post an updated video for lean critique and again thank you 
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No problem, happy to help
This is just my opinion. But if you hold the pick that way and look at the angle it makes against the string you can see it sort of hooks onto it when you do an upstrokes. Whereas down strokes glide over thanks to the angle the leading edge of the pick (the side facing the floor) makes, the trailing edge (the side facing the roof) will hook onto the string on an upstroke requiring more force to push through the string. Bridge lean seems to alleviate this problem some what by reducing the angle of the hook. I’ve done a video that hopefully illustrates what i’m getting at. @Bluedude2000, this probably answers your question too.
I tried to find a video Zakk Wyldes picking hand close up. Linked below, it appears to me that he is using some bridge lean.
I just used my normal picking setup to play the lick you mention. DWPS, slight bridge lean (somewhere around 45 degrees) and edge picking to taste. I think the edge picking somewhat disguises how much bridge lean there is, the camera angle also doesn’t show it that well. I play the lick slow through to fast and then there is a slo-mo of the fast version at the end
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Great teaching voice 
I think I am also doing a bit of “bridge lean”. Also, I found recently that doing too much edge picking would make my upstrokes a bit sticky, so these days I am trying to play with the pick a bit flatter (but still having some degree of edge picking).
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I am also a bridge-leaner. My pick naturally gets bashed into that position when I play.
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What a fantastic and detailed reply. WOW. Thank you so much and clearly myself and our fellow members have also and already benefited very much from your post… It makes total sense. Ironically it’s funny in martial art/boxing terms, when you block a punch you never catch the fist or stop it dead on as its headed towards you. The better option is to parry it, i.e. slide the strike by using either side of your opponents arm so their momentum glides their arm past you, etc. Here I can see you are really incorporating the right side of the pick on the upstrokes (right side if you are looking at the pick on a table with the point facing towards you). PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE.
It is evening time here so I don’t have really good lighting for a video on my end. Will circle back tomorrow in daylight and would love to send a critique video for you and the group.
Someone earlier mentioned that they confuse the lean concept with edge picking and I have that same issue in terms of spotting the plane of the lean versus plane of edge picking. I hate to push, is there any chance of taking a photo or a 10 second video if its easier to show how much bridge lean you incorporate into the sold my soul lick without any edge picking? As I try and refine and dial in my picking, I am turned off more and more by edge except when down picking or I need that attack here and there. Funny how tastes change over the years…
CHEERS
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It’s pretty tricky to get an angle on it but i tried my best. To set yourself up with my grip, start with neutral pick slanting, add a bit of bridge lean as per the comment right at the start of the video. Then drop into DWPS, this should give you some slight edge picking in addition to the pick slant. I think you do need some edge picking for this to work, since if you try it without you loose the path of least resistance.
I think this is why edge picking is often quoted as a solution to the picking problem, since if you already have lean and pick slanting figured out by accident, adding edge picking would be a quick fix to the path of least resistance.
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Another fantastic video! Below is my video reply for critique but there are a few things I wanted to type on first:
- Lean picking did not come natural to me. And I say natural in the sense that when you incorporate DWPS with natural thumb bend, you almost by default have some edge picking before consciously applying any. With lean picking, I had to consciously move the pick on my index finger FIRST, then close my grip, and go from there.
- Immediately my upstrokes felt smoother but at higher speeds the quality of my upstrokes did not ring out as clear as I’d like them to be, especially on the Low E. Any recommendations please?
- In your previous post you said that you have slight bridge lean (somewhere around 45 degrees). May be silly but what did you mean by 45 degrees in this case? I’m assuming if the point of the pick is facing the guitar dead on, 45 is just turning the butt of the pick towards the bridge on the horizontal axis?
- I see in this case you used rest strokes? Is this normal for you when you play alternate picking licks?
CHEERS
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I really appreciate those kind words Bullseye, thank you I’ll answer 1 and 3, then 2 and 4 combine into a longer response for better readability.
1.) Having lean in my picking was not something I adopted naturally when learning DWPS either. I too had to move the pick in my grip when starting out. Over time it became natural because I could tell when it wasn’t in the right position, the picking quality went downhill until i readopted the lean angle. Now I just pick the pick up in the “correct” way. Sometimes I have to adjust the pick whilst playing, it likes to spin itself to neck lean on occasion and I can feel when it happens.
3.) That is spot on. You have understood that right.
2/4.) I do use rest strokes for pure DWPS and UWPS licks, if I cross pick or TWPS then they go away. I used rest strokes to force the pick slant and to ensure I was clearing the strings on the upstrokes when I was learning the movement, now at slow speeds it’s just a natural part of playing. I don’t really feel them at fast speeds but it by the looks from the video they are there.
In your video it’s somewhat difficult to see the pick due to the light, although the angle at 3m40s is better. My gut wants to say that you aren’t getting enough pick on the string during the upstroke (perhaps as a result of wanting to avoid the sticky feeling?). I get a tiny fraction more than the width of the string over the pick during the upstroke, whereas you look to be only grazing the pick across the top of the string. Your first down stroke looks good and committed but you then appear to get more reserved and only glance the strings instead of committing to each stroke. In my opinion if you want a strong sound you need to commit to each stroke so that the pick goes through the string as opposed to grazing over it.
I tried looking at your other critique post but none of the videos are live anymore, with exception of @Troy’s, my opinion on is that you are string hopping in that clip. Reason being that I think you are using wrist extension on both the upstroke and the downstroke, this well inevitably be a speed limiter since you are using the same muscle groups for up and down strokes. It may also contribute to the sound you are getting.
To remedy all this. I would recommend you start on just a single string and practice something like the Yngwie six note pattern (in the pickslanting primer), really focus on using rest strokes and getting good attack on the up and down stroke. The pick should move in a straight line, diagonally in and out of the guitars body. Once you have speed and tone you are happy with on one string then you can look at applying this to string changes. The rest stroke might feel alien to begin with, however it’s going to force your pick to travel in a straight line as opposed to the curve you use at the moment. If you can nail this new movement then you will be able to apply it to any DWPS passage, be that Zakk Wylde or otherwise.
Feel free to post another video for critique of you doing this, I’m happy to look over it, when you shoot it making sure you have lots of light on the picking hand will enable the best feedback possible for you.
I think it might be useful for you, and others if I post a video of the process I used to learn one way pick slanting, since I too came from the position of not being able to do any of this until a year or so ago. I’ll try and make some time to put that together this week. If you or anyone else reading this wants me to cover TWPS and Crosspicking in it too then I’ll be happy to oblige
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I will call you King Fisch from now on… :)
You are no longer Mr. Fisch.
I am heading out of the house right now so I must cut it short. #1. Will get a new video up later today with proper lighting. #2. I deleted my old videos like an idiot on my YT. But yes I was definitely stringhopping/crosspicking/not DWPS. #3. I remember watching the 4 fundamental movements video re: wrist extension but could you explain why it is a hindrance in your opinion and what muscles should I be focusing on instead? #4. With #3 being said that would be awesome in your future DWPS video if you could please explain (as you did so clearly with lean picking and your overall picking) your mechanics in your wrist itself and possibly forearm and elbow if you use them. At different speeds we should incorporate different muscles and I’m curious what you like to use and when especially for the DWPS alternate picking runs.
Finally and to circle back on your initial point, I will definitely be committing to those upstrokes.
CHEERS
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I’ll try and make sure to include as much info as I can in the video. In the meantime, check out the CTC video on string hopping
https://troygrady.com/channels/tutorials/what-is-stringhopping/
KING Fisch… Here is an updated version of me playing the Sold My Soul lick:
Again apologies for the lighting. Turned on as much as I could in the room plus flash. My days off from work aren’t even days off anymore and I end up having a small window to do the stuff I love (this lol). Few things I wanted to share this time around:
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A good lean picking angle will allow you to more forcefully downstroke and upstroke to really accent the notes. One thing that floors me about Zakk is how “wylde” his pick attack is. It’s not all neat and pretty like MAB for instance. But he is able to smoothly attack the strings. I wonder if lean has a a big part in his picking mechanics? I’m sure he swipes like mad but I still don’t hear it…
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I discussed this with Troy and another guitar buddy of mine the other week. And again I felt it tonight when playing. I have a tendency to fix my right hand when palm muting and not move with the strings. Could be all the years of down picking Metallica and all the usual thrash suspects? Regardless my right hand tends to move off the bridge area to maintain DWPS and then the lick sounds bad OR I end up crosspicking by the A to D strings since my wrist is forced to curve as I lose the DWPS angle. Recommendations to combat this?
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When I slowed down and made it a point to accent that last upstroke on the Low E it helped me with the timing overall. I must consciously chunk this lick or else it goes to hell…
Best to you and our fellow members- BB
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This looks better to me, I can tell you are still fighting the old habits, that’s normal in my experience and should go away with time and practice.
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I think Zakk uses bridge lean quite liberally you can see it in the video linked above and some of his instagram videos
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My hand definitely moves towards the floor slightly as I change strings. I do this by moving my forearm towards the floor, that way my palm can remain on the bridge in DWPS. Try running some full pentatonic scales up and down whilst maintaining your DWPS posture. This should reveal what variables you can change in order to string track effectively. There are some post on the forum about string tracking which will have some info in I suspect
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I chunk this lick every four notes, this helps with timing and note accentuation
the video I made about my picking is live in this thread
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