Alternate Picking Plateau - Please help!

Technique Critique
#1

For well over a year, I’ve been working on learning the solo to “Runnin’ Down a Dream” by Tom Petty. The song is at 170bpm and I feel like my technique is flawed as I’ve spent well over a year (15+ mins at day) and I can’t get past around 70% without it falling apart.

I filmed at 60% in slow motion as well as 70% in slow motion. At 60% - I can hold it together - but it starts to disintegrate at 70% and upwards. I don’t know if I’m switching what I’m doing at higher speeds or just my whole technique is flawed.

Thank you for ANY suggestions or tips!

#2

This is classic stringhopping, and the limit of about 120bpm (70% of 170bpm is 119bpm) is very typical.

I’m sure this is absolutely exhausting. Have you tried the table tapping tests? If so, what type of results did you achieve? Can you do a fast tremolo on a single string?

#3

I did all the testing exercises at I can easily get 190-210 if just tremolo picking one string. I don’t know how to bridge that into my playing OR to help avoid the “string hopping” that I’m apparently doing. It seems to my eyes that I keep overshooting the E string and it’s not economical enough - but I’m not sure how to restrict that movement more… and I thought I had made some strides to the string hopping - but if you are seeing it - it must be glaringly obvious.

#4

Great! Do you know if your motion is upstroke escape or downstroke escape? Is it strongly connected to your sense of time?

If you know your escape direction, you could try mapping out the picking for the licks you’re working on to fit that direction, possible including some hammer-ons & pull-offs or hybrid picking to handle the cases that don’t quite fit.

I’d recommend that you stop worring about economy of motion entirely. It’s at best an overly naive and reductive concept, and at worst totally nonsensical. Think big, powerful, smooth and effortless.

I don’t know, I’m pretty experienced in analysis and I’m pretty sharp at picking up on these things. How obvious this is to anybody else, I can’t say.

#5

When I tremolo pick - I generally don’t feel myself overly USX or DSX… I would probably say that I generally have the butt end of the pick facing up towards me and I’m escaping as a downstroke - it seems to feel the most natural. I think in the video example - I am doing a downward escape but it looks like I’m way overshooting.

I am able to hybrid pick it at 100% but I never mention that because I feel like I want to work on the mechanics of it not so I can say that I didn’t have to hybrid pick but because I feel my inability to alternate pick it reveals a much deeper mechanical problem that I want to solve for all my guitar playing and not just this tedious “wheedly wheedly” lick that highlights my weakness. Does that make sense?

Side note: Thank you so much for your words - I can’t tell you how exhausted I am with myself and eager to get any new direction because my efforts have been mostly fruitless. I’ve bought loads of books and courses and I just feel like I can’t make the gains because I have a structural problem with what I’m doing - it’s not a matter of not practicing… I’m super diligent about that. I just want to be practicing the right way.

#6

Again, I don’t think the problem is “overshooting,” a large range of motion is a good thing. The problem is your movement path.

Are you able to include regular, rhythmic accents with your tremolo picking? Is it all a flat dynamic without strong connection to your sense of time?

Absolutely.

When I suggested hybrid picking, I meant using one hybrid picked note, a hammer or a pull-off to handle a lick doesn’t fit your escape direction, rather than relying on hybrid picking throughout.

In my experience teaching, the people who are most worried about “practicing the right way” are the people who struggle most. They’re so anxious to prevent failures that they deny themselves meaningful feedback.

Fast picking is like a jump shot or golf swing. You calculate ahead of time and take your shot, hit or miss. You can’t “control” everything.

You need to give yourself permission to miss. Failure is feedback.

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#7

@lexaunculpt1 hi, I’m pretty new to CtC and playing fast with a pick in general. When I try playing that first part at the 10th and 12th fret without thinking I automatically go to DBX like you seem to be doing.

USX on the E string and DSX on the D string, then pause for the hammer on on the D string to finish out the triplet. I’ve never heard that song before but the couple phrases at the beginning with those repeated triplets was no problem at 120bpm and I have about the same tap test results as you. This makes me think you have the speed for it like Troy says in the vids. Esp. if you can tremolo at 170bpm easily.

I’m still new but I think that the DBX will still work out. Where I start running into trouble speeding up myself, isn’t my right hand, it’s the movements with my left hand. The left and right hand motions aren’t totally synched so I think that makes them awkward to keep at the same rhythm.

I think seeing both your hands while playing that part would help the more experienced here give more advice.

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#8

@lexaunculpt1 if I’m working on learning something and struggling with a certain part, I try to break it down into something similar but slightly simpler and make an exercise out of it.

Sometimes removing the “song” from the process but still keeping the general idea can help with a breakthrough.

If I were working on that part of the song (which I am now as an alternate picking workout, thanks) I’d do this exercise till I can easily hit 170bpm with it. It’s basically the beginning of that part of the solo but without the E string involved. This will help zero in on if it’s the right hand or left hand slowing you down by removing the complication of the string switching.

If you can get this at speed with clean clear articulation I think you’ll be good on the real piece.

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#9

THANK YOU SIR! I will go practice this NOW!

#10

So my tremolo picking flies really easily BUT I don’t have the ability to accent certain beats… I can change dynamics/volume of the whole barrage of tremolo but I’m not able to nail one particular hit louder than another. Is that an issue?

I guess I kind of feel like… did you ever see those “How to draw” books as a kid. The first page was all these round circles and the next image is the whole thing drawn in. I did the pickslanting primary - I feel like I understand it - I did the tests (all 200bpm easily) and I can furiously attack one string… I look over at the next page and it’s a final drawing and I feel like I’m missing some in-between steps.

Lastly, I spent some time just trying to go fast and forgive it for being messy trash and I understand the concept that I might “find” it through the free spirited exploration of just going fast with no fear - but it just stays as fast slop?

#11

Now that you can go fast: take it to 80% and clean up your sync. This will include accents and using little bits of your pattern to get a sense of time. Troy calls it chunking in the original series. What is the timing of the pattern and how will your hands keep track?

#12

I guess my question has to do with the fact that I can only tremolo pick quickly on ONE string - but I’m not fretting notes and I’m not alternating strings… so what is the logical next step. Ive watched tons of the videos but the step between tremolo picking and then playing notes quickly seems to be lost on me.

#13

My opinion is that this is a huge issue. When I teach picking technique, I insist that my students meet five criteria

  1. Efficient muscular activation against a low background tension.
  2. Strong connection to internal sense of time.
  3. High dynamic range.
  4. The capability to escape in at least one direction.
  5. Tracking capability across all strings.

If your picking movement isn’t strongly connected to your time feel, you might struggle to slow down your fast form, and slow practice will not help to improve your fast playing.

#14

Firstly, Tom’s advice is (obviously) on point, as per the usual.

To answer your direct question of “what’s next”, it’s taking that tremolo motion and playing notes on one string, making sure hand sync is perfect. This of course assumes your tremolo motion is a “good one” and that you can control it. It’s possible you haven’t quite found it yet, if you mention not being able to do accents with it. It’s also possible there’s more context we’re missing and the motion you’re doing is just at a speed where accents just sort of disappear. These are all guesses, and while fun, could be misleading. We’d need to see specific video of the tremolo.

Have you done a technique critique through the platform yet? Stepping back from the lick you want to play, that’s really step 1. Make sure you have a good single escape motion. The way you want to play this Mike Campbell lick requires you have a motion that’s capable of double escape. That’s a whole different ball game. It’s possible to learn one quickly. I was able to find a DBX motion within about a week of messing around, but I’d already worked with Troy and Tommo to make sure I had a good single escape motion. It’s crucial because if you can do that correctly you’ll most likely laugh out loud at how easy a correct motion is to perform, even at speeds well above 200bmp. That will be the litmus test of everything else you do. Does it feel easy? If not, it’s incorrect. And that’s what helped me find the DBX motion so quickly. I searched for a motion that felt easy, at a decent speed.

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#15

Tom - Thank you for your reply and I wanted to send a quick clip I just recorded of my tremolo. I can’t determine what type of escape motion is involved since it’s such a tiny movement and at a slighter higher speed (also in the clip) seems to generate the spikes and inconsistencies Troy mentions. I notice at a slightly slower speed - I don’t get a constantly tense forearm… and can do it more easily and for longer - so maybe I’m using a lousy motion (or a lousier one when I pick up the pace)

Here’s a quick clip:

#16

This is a different angle of the tremolo if it’s able to be explained… I don’t know what I’m looking at specifically and would love any feedback! Am I on the right path?

#17

I think this one looks better. The fact that it can go that fast is a good sign. I’m sure it feels a little out of control, but I’d bet you could (slightly) slow it down to where you can do accents. You can play (on one string) melodies where the notes of the fret hand change less frequently to get some experience playing between both hands. So, “tremolo” melodies. Then move to more ‘synced’ melodic patterns (still on one string) where there is one fretted note per pick stroke. Yngwie 6 note pattern, ascending/descend triplets, etc.

Once you are ready to change to different strings, you’ll have to be aware that this motion is capable of changing strings after downstrokes only as it’s a DSX motion. You’ll get stuck quickly if you try phrases that require only upstroke escape, or even mixed escape. That’s not to say you’ll never be able to play things like that, it’s just a further step down the road.

Also, I’d highly recommend submitting a technique critique directly on the platform. The forum is great, for sure. But if you do a critique directly on the platform you’re guaranteed to get feedback from Troy and his team. Let me know if you need more explanation there, but you’d access that from your “dashboard” near the bottom of the page and click that “TC Library” link:

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Just click through and you should get guided on how to submit a critique. It’s part of your membership, so why not take advantage of it?

Also, we’ll wait to see what @Tom_Gilroy has to say about what you’ve submitted. If it’s different than what I say, trust his advice over mine :wink: lol! I’m just attempting to give the same advice I’ve seen Troy and Tommo give others that have submitted tremolos that look similar to yours.

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#18

My initial reaction was, hey, this looks really good! Then I realized it was a clip of somebody else. The clip that comes next is your technique and the speed limiting makes sense. To be blunt, you’re doing it wrong.

This form where the arm is flat against the guitar body is simultaneously the most common and also the most limiting. When you use this form, there is only one efficient escape motion available and it is only downstroke escape. Using this form, you cannot play lines that include both downstroke and upstroke escape, as you are trying to do in the Tom Petty solo. This is why you are doing stringhopping, as Tom and others have pointed out.

The first clip you included in your video is the better way. It uses the “reverse dart thrower” form we discuss in our latest Primer update. I highly recommend watching that lesson before doing anything else.

#19

My thoughts.

In the first clip, it appears to me that your intended motion path on your slower form is close to “pure” deviation. Your setup is flat, and there’s no consistent escape in either direction.

Your wrist is in extension by default, so your movement is constrained and lacks power. Some offset from a neutral wrist can be OK, if the offset is along either the dart-thrower or reverse dart-thrower path and you move along he path of your offset. Your offset is basically vertical, so your extensors are constantly engaged and mechanically disadvantaged throughout. You incorporate the elbow to compensate.

In the second clip, you wrist is held more firm and the movement is primarily elbow driven. It’s faster with consistent DSX. Your background tension seems quite high, and I’m not convinced there’s a strong connection to your sense of time.

I agree with @Troy, watch the recent update on the RDT movement.