Anti-gravity vs Reverse Dart thrower

I have recently watched both and a question I have is two part. Anti-gravity teaches a rotation for string crossing but at the end of the RDT instructional the teaching is not to do this and let the hand figure it out (paraphrase).

To me it seems the only way to cross on a 3 nps scale is either rotate or use a double escape motion. Am I correct here? I know swiping works too but disregard that for now.

Now is the RDT supposed to give us double escape motion thus the instruction not to rotate? I know RDT is about comfort, and being able to chose which escape we want but I was under the impression that double escape was something you either had or didn’t .

Ie; with a neutral slant you either get a trapped motion or double escape.

It’s more likely someone would be using “mixed escapes”, rather than dbx. I think the 902 dbx motion, and any dbx motion would likely have a speed limit. That limit could still be quite high though, and at faster speeds, it’ll flatten out. If in the setup required for rdt, at high speeds you could navigate a 3nps scale using mixed escapes.

The antigravity seminar is outdated now. This was the understanding at that time, but it’s not usually a recommended method now as it tends to result in large arm flip flop motions.

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Thanks jptk,

Would you be able to define what a mixed escape is? I have watched all of the primer wrist videos, and I am not clear. I have tried the search function and read some forum posts but that didn’t help.

To me it would seem to combine upstroke and downstroke escape forms by changing the arm supination while playing a line yet Troy says not to do this so I am confused where the mixed part is?

I think it’s in here:

Near the bottom is this:

My understanding of mixed escape is when there is a primary motion that yields escapes in just one direction, but occasionally the player needs ‘the other one’. So it’s whatever subtle way to get that additional escape that makes sense.

Sorry for the confusion!

If you look at the form I’m using in the Antigravity seminar you will notice it is the broadly same as in the RDT lessons. In other words, I’m using Reverse Dart Thrower motions in Antigravity. We just didn’t know what RDT motions were back then, why they work, and why so many people use them.

So the first and most important step is to consider the overall form you’re using and make sure it’s efficient and comfortable. If you’re a reverse dart player, then make sure you’re doing that form correctly using the tips in the RDT lessons.

The second step is to decide what types of lines you are trying to play. If it’s phrases that mix upstroke and downstroke string changes, the RDT form gives that to you. You shouldn’t have to worry too much about which specific escape motions your hands are making as you try to play these phrases. Great players tend to mix and match these motions subconsciously, so we see all kinds of interesting combinations when we film them. All of them are broadly correct in that players use them and they appear to work.

You also shouldn’t have to be too concerned about whether or not there is any forearm motion, i.e. “two-way pickslanting”, as you attempt these phrases. Since the RDT form gives you access to both types of string changes, you may simply find that less of this is necessary and so you see less of it. But I wouldn’t try to eliminate it so much as simply to focus on doing the form correctly and playing the lines you want with the greatest possible comfort.

Yes, we have seen instances of “unintentional two-way pickslanting” where the player is changing their arm orientation, and subsequently changing their motions in ways that aren’t helpful. This can cause pickstrokes to get displaced to different strings, notes to go missing, and so on. If that’s happening, then you may want to take a look at it. But again, I would approach this by considering the overall form first since that will probably address most of this before it becomes a problem.

Let me know if that helps!

The “large / unnecessary” motions thing happens when players try to learn the techniques and perform them in an exaggerated way. I don’t think it’s that the techniques themselves always lead to exaggerated playing, since very good players do actually make these motions and they aren’t always exaggerated or problematic.

Out in the wild, many wrist players, even the most “wristy” of them, exhibit some amount of forearm involvement or other small changes in their overall form on certain phrases, of precisely the type that we demonstrate in the Antigravity seminar. So this information isn’t so much outdated as it is part of a bigger picture which is clearer to us now.

You can file all the reverse dart players broadly in one family if you like. And then at the smaller-picture level, you can notice that some of them use slightly different combinations of motions, sometimes little bits of forearm here and there, and so on. Questions of why they do this, and whether these differences matter, I think will remain “smaller picture” questions that may have some impact on how we teach things in the future, but probably won’t change the big-picture teaching too much.

The big-picture teaching is getting the form, making sure the range of motion is good, making sure the motion is comfortable, etc. This places you broadly in the ballpark of what all these players are doing. Once you have that, the little things hopefully start to fall into place with less thinking.

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Yes, my apologies, I worded that badly. It is still relevant and something that is seen in many players interviewed.

The point is taken though, people watch the seminar and think, ok I have to do that stuff, but they’re not clear on how this relates to the more recent teaching. We’ll probably add a note about this in the Primer lessons at some point just to clarify that these motions exist, but that you may not need to consider them as consciously once you have the overall form correct.

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Yes this was extremely helpful. Thank you for taking the time to explain it. I would love to see a youtube short if you are so inclined playing the Paul Gilbert lick where he plays 5 notes on the lower string an 1 note on the higher string. I am curious as to how you would approach this presently as I think it could be an excellent distillation of the RDT in action.

Cheers!

Sorry for the confusion, maybe I’m not explaining this. There is no difference in approach. Look at this old clip. If you’ve watched the RDT lessons then you will recognize right away a certain “ergonomic” form that is exactly the same as the form we teach in the new lessons:

If you spend any time thinking about smaller picture details like precisely which escape motions are being made, I think that’s misplaced. Assume the form, get the motion happening as comfortably as you can, and play a variety of phrases with that. Try to include things that go beyond the typical three-note-per-string stuff since they don’t include a ton of variety.

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Yes I see the form. I think you are correct as to what I am doing. I am spending a lot of time examining the motion on string changes. Most likely because I was taught just pick back and forth and you will get it so I don’t trust that. That is how I landed in string hopping territory and didn’t know it.

I have been actually doing what you recommend by assuming the form, getting the motion and playing a variety of passages. It does seem to work to not overthink the motions at a string change. I just don’t trust it haha!

I guess I want to micromanage to make sure I am efficiently making those changes, and then try to bake in those motions.

I think trying to micromanage your motions is exactly the opposite of what you should be doing.

Thanks Tom. I think I will post a video demonstrating what I am trying to get across. Perhaps micro managing isn’t the best choice of words. Examining the motion closely to make sure it is efficient would be better.

Video is always best. However, “examining the motion” sounds to me like you’re trying to visually analyze your playing in real time, and I would strongly caution against doing that. It’s ok to look at what your doing occasionally, but while playing you should try to focus entirely on what you can feel. Your senses of touch, position and movement need to take over.

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I would say I do both. But that is a good advice. Cheers.

The traditional advice to just do “whatever” wasn’t based on anything. Here, we’ve given you many tools to know that what you are doing is correct, including the most powerful tool of all: simply knowing what the correct technique is, and knowing what is supposed to happen when you’re doing it right. This is a huge advantage. Now you know what to listen for and feel for, and occasionally to look for, to make sure things are working.

Once you have the form correct, if the motion feels easy and the results sound good, then it is perfectly fine to “check your work” with a camera to see if you are really playing things cleanly. This is not micromanaging anything. If you see the results you expect, then great — keep going.

When in doubt just make a critique on the platform and we’ll take a look.

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Thanks Troy. I apologize if my words came across as insulting when mentioning traditional advice. That was not my intent. Your work has given me powerful tools that I am extremely grateful for. My family will attest to my evangelical ramblings about CTC.

I also figured out where my confusion was. I was thinking there should be no forearm motion when trying the RDT setup, and you did initially address this.

There’s nothing to apologize, I didn’t take any of your comments in a negative way. More generally, you don’t have to worry about following the instructions in the Primer — they’re recent and reflect our current understanding of things. If the instructions are unclear, of course, you’re welcome to ask and we’ll clarify / update as necessary.