Any converts from alternate picking to twps?

Playing Technique
#1

A little background: I’m primarily DBX but for long descending scales will revert to DSX economy picking, that’s just the way I learned with DSX years ago. I’m comfortable with alternating for ascending and switching direction, and don’t actually use pickslanting for sweeps; in either direction my hand just tracks through the strings with a fairly extreme pick angle.

After a little experimentation short bursts of ascending economy picking does seem effective but after two strings my brain rebels and wants to go back to what it’s used to, alternate picking. Is it practical to do ascending lines with two different techniques? Is economy picking so efficient that I should just convert?

Pardon the lazy post, I know this stuff is easier if OP provides video; I’m away from home for a bit but even a few anecdotes from people who have done both would be helpful. Thanks for reading!

#2

I was primarily DSX, I’ve learned how to do DBX. I wouldn’t call myself a convert though lol

EDIT: wait, by “twps” are you asking about only people who are economy picking (Gambale style) where ascending you slant slightly down, then descending you slant slightly up? Or are talking about the all but deprecated “2 way Pickslanting” from the anti-gravity days? That was Troy’s blanket term in reaction to anything requiring more than one escape, but it’s since been better understood as the slant was not always important. So in my mind when I read posts where people ask about “twps” I think “Oh they want to know about DBX (or mixed escape)”

#3

I’m no expert on the mechanics but I appear to do the same. I’m a DSX’er for super fast tremolo and top speed phrases but I’m a few things when going up and down with things that aren’t my top speed.

My ascending is apparently a combination of DSX and DBX and ascending is very economy. I’ve tried to do economy ascending but it’s never clicked.

That said, I been playing through a few of the 6-string Metronomic Rock licks, and doing those with cognizant DSX makes me thing I wasn’t using a true DSX motion when going up and down the stings… I don’t know why that is. I’m learning as much about what I used to do while trying to learn to USX and both are confusing the hell out of me on a regular basis, haha.

#4

Hi Joe, yeah this stuff gets confusing fast; first, I don’t actually pickslant; I probably should have said “two-way economy picking.” Second, I may not be using true DBX but some sort of mixed escape is going on: I do Gilbert Sixes without swiping and there’s definitely some sort of helper motion going on, it may be that I’m doing upward escape for a split-second to grab the higher string for that sort of lick.

Maybe I should edit my post, I should have mentioned that I’ve already invested a fair amount of time in alternating and can do two-octave ascending scales at 130 sextuplets so it’s a bit of a thought to reverse-engineer the whole thing.

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#5

Makes sense. I’ve put almost no time into continuous economy. I think the people who can make it work are impressive (looking right at you, Rick Graham :wink: ) I’d think it would cause hand sync issues. I use very sparse economy in like an Eric Johnson context, but that normally seems to end us up on playing “down on the down beats”. I can handle mostly all downs on the downbeats, mostly all up on the down beats (like 2nps in a DSX context)…but frequent changes between the 2 that can happen any time any place…that confuses me and I’m pretty confused to begin with :upside_down_face:

#6

Economy makes so much sense on paper but it sometimes feels like I’m not really PLAYING. One of the MI teachers was showing everyone economy with both hands and it looked so boring.

An interesting thing about it that I don’t think I did that when I was coming up. Just when I came back. I would use it accidentally when my hand felt it needed to do it but not fully like it seems to be doing now.

#7

Can you film some examples of what you’re doing? Doesn’t have to be crazy fast but I’m curious what it looks like. My thoughts on what I’ve been doing keep changing and I wonder if it’s similar

#8

I know what you mean here, to be clear I don’t really mean switching to all economy picking. It always weirded me out the extremes people like Gambale would go to, like omitting notes when changing direction. I’d use economy for long scalular passages but I still have alternate picking in the toolbox for switching direction, or for odd note groupings that don’t fit the DUD DUD pattern.

I know the hand sync issues can be dealt with as I’ve always used economy picking for long descending passages, I’m just not sure it’s worth switching when alternate picking is working . . . but I will say economy picking is very fast and easy when the bugs are worked out.

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#9

if you are just playing for fun on your own learn whatever you want. i often try to play gypsy jazz songs with 3 finger economy picado just for fun after learning them with rest stroke technique to try to bring 3 finger economy picado to fruition if it ever happens. lol

now thats if you mean playing the same lines with 2 different techniques, but you could also have a new line that uses only this new technique.

i would say if you love guitar learn as much as you can mentally handle, if it stresses you out back off. if you enjoy it, see results, then roll with it. i see any sort of hand conditioning with other techniques probably can assist improving your main natural techniques. plus you get the added benefit of playing the line even more times to possibly burn into your doodling improvisation mindset.

#10

Hi, I think economy picking in ascending lines (3nps) is imposible with the typical DSX orientation of pick, forearm, wrist, resting parts, etc, obviously. This idea of changing strings using economy downstroke after the last note downstroke, so you have down down when changing occurs, was hovering in my mind for sometime after seeing Josh Meader’s technique that’s helping string changing by hammering the last note, yes that’s a diffrent solution.
Anyways playing economy when ascending is more natural with USX motion of course, so if you’re thinking of investing time in the economy solution and don’t know if it may get good results soon or if it can mess with your instinctive and habitual way of picking then if I may suggest, hope I’m not wrong, try using it on small frases (cycling ones maybe) see if it works.
And btw I’m primarily a DSX too, but unsuccesfully struggling with the USX and the two way escape motion

#11

I’ve posted this on the site before, but here it is again: Paul Gilbert around the GIT period. The first 20 seconds is all two way economy picking, the only time I’ve ever seen him do it, with his standard grip and setup. He clearly was capable with it and could have developed it, but abandoned it - you can draw your own conclusions.

I’m going to say probably not, but I suppose it’s up to each individual how well you can differentiate between the two.

#12

I played two way economy picking for nearly two decades. I never felt very comfortable with it. Garage spikes during direction changes, two hand sync issues, timing issues etc etc

Since joining CTC, I found I could already do the forearm/wrist usx tremolo quite fast(ish)… So nowadays, I’m practicing usx only licks, with the help of the downstroke sweep. I’m still learning, but I can play things now I could never play when using two way economy.

When I say two way economy, I mean the type that doesn’t have any outside picking. So string changes are either swept or inside picking.

#13

It seems possible to do economy picking both ascending and descending with the DSX grip/motion. Here is my attempt after 5 minutes practice and then some takes, far from decent but these are the best ones for now, need a lot of practice