Anyone else interested in shorter scale necks to maximize playing?

Gear
#1

Most of my life I’ve been a Gibson Les Paul guy and have steered clear of Fender Stratocasters. I could just play better with an LP. I didn’t realize why until I learned about the difference in scale length between these two iconic guitars.

Most people know that the typical Gibson scale length guy 24.75 inches. The stratocaster has a 25.5 inche scale length.

Because of the monstrous popularity of these two models, many manufacturors produce to similar specs, with the Strat’s longer scale seeming to take the lion’s share in the market for some reason.

I now know I was drawn to the LP scale because of my smaller than average hands.

Then I started playing bass, and my hands seemed to get even smaller. This is when I really started learning about the benefit of shorter scale necks to achieve what I want musically on an instrument that is better suited to my personal ergonomics. I just had a bass neck made in medium scale because of this.

Anyhow, I’d like to hear your thoughts on this topic if you’ve explored shorter scale guitars to suit your ergonomics.

How short is too short? Do the frets get too small up high if you go to short? How does fretwire play into this? Does the radius of the fretboard seem to have an effect? Me stubby digits would like to know your thoughts.

I’m considering having a custom neck built for a guitar and am wondering if a 24 inch scale length would be too short. My luthier is going to see how many frets he can do for such a neck and get back to me.

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#2

I’m currently playing a Gretsch Double Jet with a relatively comfy 24.6 inch scale length. All that bass playing has helped my left hand stretch tremendously.

That being said, I may be able to wring out more from my fretting hand on a shorter scale neck.

#3

I have never done any experiments with this myself (kind of hard to do when you’re left handed and basically take the one guitar you can find), but your post reminded me of what Paul Gilbert has done with his tiny guitar.

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#4

Those are cool, I had no idea they were out there. I am familiar with the Mikro series. They’re great for travel practice, but a bit too short for my purposes.

#5

I play 22.5" exclusively. It has very little to do with frets though. You hit the nail on the head, lower frets are more reachable, upper frets are more crowded. Choose your poison.

It’s about wanting a guitar that feels like it fits my body size and arm reach and was not designed for someone much larger.

https://forum.troygrady.com/t/what-about-the-much-stang-22-5-scale-guitars?source_topic_id=2519
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#6

Are the upper frets still useable for you with that, or is it pretty much useless beyond a certain point?

#7

Usable. I mean, geez, look at a violin or mandolin. They’re like toys.

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#8

I’m a tall lanky guy so I pretty much play 25.5" exclusively, although I’d be interested in trying a 25" scale like a Carvin V220 from the 80’s. I played an ESP Eclipse for a loooooong time and didn’t even know about scale length and always wondered why stuff past the 14th fret was a nightmare for me. Then I snagged my first Charvel and my world sorta folded in on itself in a beautiful way. The only way I can really do Gibson-scale these days is on 22 frets or less.

#9

Well I am thrilled because a local shop has some Fender Duosonics which are 24 inch scale and 22 fret. It will be nice to see how it feels to determine if it’s worth going down that small.

My plan is to take a body built for a 25.5 inch scale neck and have a custom shorter scale neck built for it. I may have to sacrifice a fret or two at the body end of things, though, otherwise the bridge would have to be moved.

#10

I mentioned it in another thread, but a cheap and easy way to get some idea of the difference is to just slap a capo on a regular guitar.

On a 25.5" scale guitar, the distance of each fretslot from the previous fretslot is as follows for the last four frest on a 24 fret guitar (note that these measurements are center-to-center distances between the indicated fretslot and the preceding fretslot):
Fret21: 0.451"
Fret22: 0.425"
Fret23: 0.402"
Fret24: 0.379"

On a Les Paul (24.75") scale length, the corresponding spacings are:
Fret20: 0.464"
Fret21: 0.438"
Fret22: 0.413"
Fret23: 0.390"
Fret24: 0.368"

24" Scale length (note the fret-spread equivalence to a capoed 25.5; if the tightest fretspace your finger will fit into on a 25.5" is at fret 21, the tightest it will fit on a 24" is at fret 20, etc.; the spacings are equivalent to a 25.5" capoed at the first fret)
Fret20: 0.450"
Fret21: 0.424"
Fret22: 0.400"
Fret23: 0.378"

22.75" scale (“3/4 scale length”, e.g. Squier Mini Strat; note the spread equivalence to 25.5" again, but offset by yet another fret index; Fret 22 on a 22.75" feels like fret 24 on a 25.5", or put another way, a 22.75 has equivalent spacing to a 25.5" that’s been capoed at the 2nd fret):
Fret19: 0.451"
Fret20: 0.426"
Fret21: 0.402"
Fret22: 0.380"

22.5" scale length (again “pretty close” to equivalent to a capoed 25.5; e.g. “Jackson Minion”; “2/3 scale”):
Fret19: 0.446"
Fret20: 0.421"
Fret21: 0.398"
Fret22: 0.375"

22" Scale length (if you only ever go up to Fret 21, the spacing is roughly the equivalent of the top end of a 24 fret 25.5" but with just a little extra room):
Fret18: 0.463"
Fret19: 0.437"
Fret20: 0.412"
Fret21: 0.389"
Fret22: 0.367"

20" scale length:
Fret16: 0.472"
Fret17: 0.445"
Fret18: 0.420"
Fret19: 0.397"
Fret20: 0.375"

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#11

[quote=“Frylock, post:10, topic:2519, full:true”]

I appreciate your input.

If I’m thinking about this correctly, the capoing trick will work, but only in regards to the frets up to the 12th fret. After that, it would not be exactly like as if it the scale was shortened. I believe the frets would have to get a bit tighter from the 12th to the bridge in order to mimic a true scale change.

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#12

No, the fret spacing is based on a ratio. A 24" scale guitar is like taking a 25.5" scale guitar, putting the nut where the first fret was, and re-assigning the fret numbers, so what had been fret 12 on the 25.5" is now fret 11 on the 24".

If you take a 24" and line it up against a 25.5" such that the 1st fret of the 24" lines up with the 2nd fret of the 25.5", all the frets on the two necks will exactly match (though the “fret markers” will not match).

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#13

In practical terms, I think you’re right. But if you plug in 25.5 inch scale for 22 frets versus 24 inch scale for 22 frets into the Stew Mac fret calculator, you get two different sets of distances between frets.

Here are the 25.5 scale dimensions:

fret from nut fret to fret
1 1.431" 1.431" (nut-1)
2 2.782" 1.351" (1-2)
3 4.057" 1.275" (2-3)
4 5.261" 1.203" (3-4)
5 6.397" 1.136" (4-5)
6 7.469" 1.072" (5-6)
7 8.481" 1.012" (6-7)
8 9.436" 0.955" (7-8)
9 10.338" 0.902" (8-9)
10 11.189" 0.851" (9-10)
11 11.992" 0.803" (10-11)
12* 12.750" 0.758" (11-12)
13 13.466" 0.716" (12-13)
14 14.141" 0.675" (13-14)
15 14.779" 0.638" (14-15)
16 15.380" 0.602" (15-16)
17 15.948" 0.568" (16-17)
18 16.484" 0.536" (17-18)
19 16.990" 0.506" (18-19)
20 17.468" 0.478" (19-20)
21 17.919" 0.451" (20-21)
22 18.344" 0.425" (21-22)

Here are the 24 inch scale dimensions:

fret from nut fret to fret
1 1.347" 1.347" (nut-1)
2 2.618" 1.271" (1-2)
3 3.818" 1.200" (2-3)
4 4.951" 1.133" (3-4)
5 6.020" 1.069" (4-5)
6 7.029" 1.009" (5-6)
7 7.982" 0.952" (6-7)
8 8.881" 0.899" (7-8)
9 9.730" 0.849" (8-9)
10 10.530" 0.801" (9-10)
11 11.286" 0.756" (10-11)
12* 12.000" 0.714" (11-12)
13 12.674" 0.674" (12-13)
14 13.309" 0.636" (13-14)
15 13.909" 0.600" (14-15)
16 14.476" 0.566" (15-16)
17 15.010" 0.535" (16-17)
18 15.515" 0.505" (17-18)
19 15.991" 0.476" (18-19)
20 16.440" 0.450" (19-20)
21 16.865" 0.424" (20-21)
22 17.265" 0.400" (21-22)
#14

The fretslot-to-fretslot distances on his chart still have matching subsets (with very slight differences because the “perfect match” to a 25.5" capoed at the first fret would be about 24.07" rather than exactly 24.0"). Since 24.0" isn’t quite the “perfect match” scale length to a capoed 25.5", the fretslot-to-fretslot distances on the 24.0" are about 0.004" tighter than a capoed 25.5" for the first couple of frets (a little under half the thickness of a typical high E string), with the difference gradually shrinking to 0.002" by the 12th fret, and shrinking closer to 0.001" by the 18th fret. Theoretically, the difference would be less than 0.001" by a 25th fret.

Also, his “from nut” column is showing you the distance from the nut to the fret. The nut on a 24" is closer to the bridge than the nut on a 25.5". The distances from the bridge to the frets will have a matching subset.

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#15

I primarily have an issue with how 24.75in scales guitars bodies are proportioned. The scale length may be shorter, but they also tend to be fitted with pretty large bodies that rarely are any smaller than 25.5in guitars. In essence, while it makes it easier for the left hand, it also moves my right hand more towards my belly, and that’s not comfortable, especially as I play in the classical position more often than not. All that with the added bonus of dealing with thicker gauges if you like to retain tension… unless you have crystal fingers like Yngwie or Michael Romeo (by all means be my guest). :smile: I’ve avoided Gibson SGs or the K. Cobain Signature Jaguar just because of that.

I’d be more interested in a guitar with a smaller body than a guitar with a smaller scale to be honest. I’d even try a .strandberg* Boden just for curiosity. Unfortunately most 24.75in guitars don’t fit the bill and aren’t more comfortable to use than the average 25.5in super Strat. And I like my 24 frets too, even if I don’t put them to good use. :grin:

On a side note, the Jackson Dinky body is 7/8th the size of a Jackson Soloist body. I thought the difference was fairly minor until I tried a Soloist and the horn dug into my chest. :neutral_face:

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#16

While it’s not quite the case you’re talking about, another place this can crop up is in 22 versus 24 fret versions with the same scale length. For the cheap Jackson JS11 and JS12, both are 25.5" scale length, but one is 22 fret and one is 24 frets. For the 24 fret, they’ve just put a longer neck on the same body design, and squeezed the bridge and bridge pickup closer to the neck pickup to keep the scale length the same:

https://www.jacksonguitars.com/gear/guitars/js-series-dinky-js11-rosewood-fingerboard-gloss-black

https://www.jacksonguitars.com/gear/guitars/js-series-dinky-js12-rosewood-fingerboard-gloss-black

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#17

Most comfortable small-body 25.5" guitar? Washburn N4. The “Nuno” model. Big comfortable fret spacing, small comfortable body. Stevens cutaway in the back for effortless upper fret reach, better than any neck-through I’ve tried.

It’s got a sound though, very little bass. It sounds pretty much exactly like Extreme records. Which are super bright.

#18

I’m interested solely for the purpose of tuning it like a 5th higher with 8s.

#19

As an addendum, this discussion also reminds me of Andy James, who switched away from the EBMM JP6/JP BFR bodies to ESP/Ltd Horizon guitars partly because the JP bodies (and the Axis) felt very small to him, comparing them to “kid’s toys” on social media. Pretty sure the switch was helped by getting his own Signature line of instruments; even if I’ll certainly agree that a Horizon is a bigger instrument than a MusicMan JP. Not that Petrucci himself seemed to mind…

EDIT: On a more general point of view on the practical aspect of the instrument, I don’t play any steel strung acoustic guitar either. They weren’t made to be practical to play but to sound big; which in context makes sense. Does this sound like something Frank Gambale would say? Probably because I went to one of his clinics last year about his Cort signature acoustic guitar. Needless to say that he was nice to everyone.

I remember Paul saying about Lisa-X that she didn’t have so much trouble about fretting the instrument but that she struggled with bending and left hand vibrato, which certainly makes sense.

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