Are there other scale shapes?

Teacher's Lounge
#1

I’ve been working a long time on the widely used 3-note-per-string scale shapes. I’m trying to improve my picking speed so when I play say a two-octave scale it sounds nice and clean and has some nice speed to it.

But I find this particular shape kinda hard to execute. I’m getting better at it, but I don’t know if I will reach my goal with it.

I’ve thought about maybe I would be better off playing other scale shapes. Right now I’m working on the G Major shape.

I should add that I want to pick each note. I do not want to use hammer ons or pull offs. And I’ve been using economy picking to change strings.

#2

I don’t know much, but I do know this;

  1. 3 nps stuff as alternate picking lines don’t work for single escape players unless you economy or hybrid or legato 'em. (Well, it would work out if you only play it on a single string, but that could be a bit rough on the left hand hahaha)

  2. Even number of notes per string stuff DOES work for single escape players so try that; 2 or 4 NPS if it MUST be alternate picked.

  3. if you MUST alternate pick a scale shape, 3nps is really comfortable for the left hand. Perhaps double escape is the way for you?

Surely someone who knows the facts will chime in!

#3

What do you find hard about it?

Is it the musically ascended part or the musically descended part?

Or a specific string change midway through the scale?

How do you pick it, Alternate or Economy?

I would say at least also learn the mixolydian shape that way you know where the 5th degree is from the major shape. The locrian shape from a descending point is also good so you can hit the 7th degree to resolve to the tonic. It is really hard to say without seeing some kind of chord progression, but knowing of the other shapes and there connection point to the dominant and tonic in major helps. Oh and knowing where the tritone is can also add a bit of mystery to where you are going if you decide to go there. :smiley:

plus i really shouldnt say a shape is a specific modal sound anyways, but it is just to help try to describe something over a forum text in as short of a paragraph as i woulnd’t want to hit you with a descriptive wall of text on harmony.

#4

I’m using economy picking to change from one string to the next. One thing I find kinda uncomfortable about 3-note-per-string shapes is the way that you have to hold your left hand. I never liked that classical positioning of the left hand.

As far as which is more difficult ascending or descending goes I have not yet tried to descend much as I have spent most of my time just getting used to ascending. Right now I’m currently practicing playing the first seven notes of the Major scale.

I know I’m getting better but I just want to explore other shapes.

#5

this is something you can do is to familiarize yourself with how the scales sound individually is to stay on the same tonic note, and go from bright to dark.

lydian
ionian
mixolydian
dorian
aeolian
phrygian
locrian

and then go back in reverse

this can help you to hear the color a bit better if you aren’t playing a backing tonic sound.

#6

Why you want to play the 3nps scales? Would you not rather learning lines, licks or interesting patterns? I spent a lot of time practicing 3 note per string scales and I can’t think of any context where I would play 2+ octaves of a major scale in in practical situation. After conversation with @JakeEstner recently, I’ve been wondering if all of that scale practice was a waste of time.

I made the video in this post for another forum user some time ago, you might also find it helpful:

First 8mins and 45secs is specific to the original poster, but they are common problems that I see regularly. After that, the information should be something which benefits you.

If you can post a short video of you playing the G Major scale (it doesn’t need to be fast), I can give a brief critique of your current form.

EDIT: As for other scale shapes, you could try the five CAGED shapes that Jimmy Bruno teaches.

#7

Your 3 main options are 3NPS, CAGED or the Berklee system (very similar to 3NPS) or you could use economy in one direction and use 4 notes the other way with a position shift for the extra note to work for your single escapes :grin:

Before all this you’ll want to have an efficient motion otherwise it’s all gonna be an uphill battle. Personally, I would get this sorted before working on economy picking, as you can kinda fake it with economy (I did for years)

#8

Do you place your hand firmly on the instrument or does it float freely?

Where on your hand, thumb heel or pinky heel, do you plant your hand?

Don’t forget to play the descending side, which has a distinctive sound of its own. It would be excellent practice for when you start learning more descended phrases since you won’t always play ascended phrasing. In this manner, you can learn musically descended phrasing with some sort of basic picking technique.

To discover where the tonic is located in other shapes you learn, you can also try starting the scale off each finger of your fretting hand.

#9

While not about picking or fretting hand form, I want to share this.

This is just ONE way to look at the Major scale and its modes. It happens to be the way that clicked as loudly as anything ever has. To me, it simplified it to the point of absurdity.

These days when I hear something like “I’m practicing the G Major scale” or “Play the modes off the same tonic”, I (kind of) cringe. It’s literally all the same thing. There are three, single-string patterns, with simple and easy rules. This is 3NPS stuff, so it’s not new.

The theory behind 3NPS is the game-changer IMHO. Others may look at it and think “not really news…”. Those tend to be people who studied this stuff for years and can recite each mode’s formula from memory.

This isn’t for those people.

To me, the title screen is not sensationalistic. It’s about as accurate as anything gets.

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#10

Good video @Ruefus, I’ve noticed this pattern too and it really simplifies fretboard navigation.

The basic logic here can also be to the single string component shapes of the CAGED positions. Shapes Y and Z are present, but the whole/whole shape X is eliminated and we just have two notes a whole tone apart on the same string. Give it a name, maybe lower case x, and you can apply all the same logic and derive the transition rules.

In either case, it’s been helpful for me to learn to visualize small cells or 6 or 5 notes composed of pairs of adjacent shapes and learn the intervallic functions of the notes in these cells. I used colours to help me visualise and recognize patterns initially. Each 6 note cell contains a pair of arpeggios.

It’s also super valuable to practice playing rudimentary coordinations in each single string shape and in the cells.

Then, you can derive an efficient “loading” process for bringing the notes of any key into memory. There’s always a root note somewhere under your fretting hand.

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#11

Ruefus found a nice video the only mystery left is looking at a scale as two tetrachords. Then the sky is the limit as you can create whatever scale you want when you can mentally hear the sound you might be after you can just combine a lower and an upper tetrachord. A site I like to use is Ian Ring’s scale finder. Once you sort of learn all the tetrachords you can just combine two, and just plug them into that circle scale finder.

So I would say after you learn the major scale and the modes of it by the 3nps shapes would be to go back dissect each mode figuring out which two tetrachords make up those modes, and listening to both tetrachords that each mode has in isolation to hear how they sound. Then go back and combine them, and you will have a better complete picture of how the scale sounds.

And honestly I just tried to find a video explaining it, there are probably thousands on YouTube. But I am watching this one as I am posting this, and it looks really great. Although I don’t like how he named the harmonic tetrachord “gypsy”, but you can name them however you wish. I like to think the main tetrachords being major, minor, and phrygian with every other tetrachord you come across in other modes of scales you create when combining two of these three will just be an exotic variation of one of these main three tetrachords. Similar to how you have the primary colors, I consider these the primary colors in an aural sense. So definitely learn to discern between these three for sure will help you unlock your ear a bit.

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#12

For those that may be a bit thrown by the term tetrachord…it’s a four-note chord. That’s all.

7th chords (Major, Minor or Dominant) are all types of 4 note (tetra) chords.

Tri is 3 and tetra is 4.

#13

Another observation which was helpful for me.

In any 6 note cell composed of two adjacent 3nps single shapes, you have two arpeggios. With only one exception, one of these arpeggios is always in the tonic group (I, iii & vi) and one always falls into the non-tonic group (ii, IV, V and viio). The exception is the Lydian 6 note cell, XY, which contains two non-tonic arpeggios (IV and V).

#14

Looking more closely at a finer detail, you’ll notice something that wasn’t so obvious when learning the fingerings.

Screenshot 2023-02-03 at 09-59-53 Fretboard Diagram Creator
Screenshot 2023-02-03 at 09-59-53 Fretboard Diagram Creator920×280 19.8 KB

If you have a three-note fragment like this, try fingering with the index, middle, and ring (not index, ring, and pinky) to see if you gain speed through better fingering management when you get ready to start crossing to a new string on a different fragment.

#15

I have never been able to play a 3-note-per-string scale shape very well. I find them difficult. But I have improved quite a bit though I must say.

Music is filled with scales and arpeggios and chords. That’s the building blocks of music.

Maybe you find scale playing boring. I don’t. When a person can play something that he never could before it is a major accomplishment.

#16

I can understand this kind of thought process in terms of musical creativity, but there are times when you will do a scale run, or a fragment of it where doing some speed training will be beneficial. Plus just dabbling in a shape I see nothing wrong with it, but try to be more free in where you go when you are improvising to a backing drone note or chord progression while only occasionally blasting into a straight scalar run. And eventually getting into transcribing your favorite players phrasing so you can learn some phrases to doodle with when improvising.

Absolutely nothing wrong with doing it, just try to have some time management set aside to practice more of a speed scale workout, then move on to learning phrasing with that scale soundscape. Don’t get stuck in the mindset of only practicing the scale up and down for longer than 20-30 minutes, and make sure you are managing that time with a pretty strict speed training regime so to be efficient with your time. Flamenco has some pretty useful speed scale type exercises that you could kind of steal ideas from to form a workout with a plectrum pick. And knowing how easily the body can adapt to training regime, maybe only do this every few days if you aren’t seeing results from doing it on the regular.

#17

Maybe I’m finally ahead of you on something, Tom. I don’t have to wonder if I wasted time on scale practice. I know it was wasted time. :slight_smile: That’s time I could been writing melodies or my own patterns or…anything really. Going through motions “just because” has become a major pet peeve of mine lately.

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#18

I never said that I find it boring. Actually, I find it cathartic. However, I have some doubts that scale practice, at least with the aim of building speed across the standard 3 note per string shapes, is actually a valuable investment of time.

You should practice scales, intervals, etc. However, I’ve come to believe that it’s much more productive to practice these things and sing what you play, to connect your inner ear to your hands. Practicing scales to build speed is just developing specific coordinations you’re unlikely to use in an actual musical context.

You can develop technique through rudimentary movement patterns that actually transfer to real music.

Could you not get that sense of accomplishment by playing the music you want to play, or through developing transferrable coordinations?

What special value are you getting from practicing picking on 3 note per string scales shapes? Why is that the goal?

I’m trying to be argumentative, and if you want to be able to pick 3 note per strings scales shapes fast, then by all means, do that. I just don’t know what special benefit it’s actually been to me, beyond that feeling of catharisis.

#19

When you are improvising this can and will occur if desire to use the entire scale or only a few strings worth of it. And knowing how to sing each individual solfege syllable, or even scatting the entire scale phrase is nonsense. As it will go by in the blink of an eye and you will only perceive it by the very first tonic note you hit against a backing chord. And if you are able to audiate it inside your minds ear at warp tempo, great. I however am not that fast with audiation inside the ole noggin. maybe a few phrases that i have played way to many times and a few solos that i have listened to 100s of times in the car I could audiate quickly, but this is my flaw that i have to work on. :sweat_smile:

And I am on agreement with you here, so don’t take my last statement out of context.

#20

There are two things going on:

  1. Technical ability
  2. Musicality

/massive rant on

You can’t work on both of these at the same time. You can’t.

They are two different skillsets. Intertwined - but requiring separate practice regimens and even engage different parts of the brain.

Running scales isn’t entirely pointless, but its so close you can’t really tell.

“Play something musical and turn it into an exercise!”

I’ve heard that in one form or another for 30+ years and it’s complete crap. You get good at playing…that exercise, or that line over that chord progression. Rarely does it translate to skills elsewhere. Its that lick or line in some regard. I also believe it to be a holdover from piano teachers. At least with piano - you can see the notes being played.

A guitarist is an athlete using tiny muscles and comparatively tiny movements to generate speed, precision and endurance. The technical stuff has squat to do with musicality. But without it you are terribly limited and forever banging against them.

Look at it from an athlete’s perspective. Do people like Lionel Messi, Lebron James or Lewis Hamilton only practice their sport only by doing their sport? Does a bench press have anything to do with football, basketball or auto racing? Of course not.

Except it does.

Why musicians think we can practice both effectively at the same time is a mystery to me. No one else works that way.

After a little over a month working with Tom Gilroy, my facility on the guitar has shot up faster than at any time in my playing life…which is 30+ years and included virtuoso-level instructors and a LOT of hours.

All with about 15 minutes a day total. No joke, no exaggeration. I’m so jazzed, I can’t even begin to express it.

The rest of my playing is music, learning stuff and having more fun with it than I have for a very long time.

/rant off

My apologies.

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