Ballad of the bent thumb: Pick grip question from the new guy

Playing Technique
#1

Hello. I’m new to the site. I joined up this week and dove right into the Pickslanting Primer.

What I’ve learned so far is that I’m a wrist picker who favors a slightly positive pick position and that I’ve been bending my thumb for I don’t know how long which has not done me any favors in terms of control, stamina, and economy of motion.

Here’s what I was doing.

CTC_Bent_Thumb
CTC_Bent_Thumb4032×3024 1.61 MB

And here’s what I’m doing now.

CTC_Straight_Thumb
CTC_Straight_Thumb4032×3024 2.05 MB

Since straightening my thumb I’ve noticed I can pick with more precision and less tension as I’m now using my wrist to pick whereas before it seems my thumb would bend as I played constantly making small changes to the angle the pick hits the string.

Just looking for some feedback from forum members with more experience.

Thanks and looking forward to soaking as much information as I can from the site and the members of this forum.

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#2

I feel like I’ve gone through phases of purposefully straightening or bending my thumb, and in the end I’ve just kinda let it do what it does; I feel like it’s somewhere in the middle, slight bend but no active flexion.

I would suggest to just stay cognizant of it, and don’t hesitate to keep experimenting with different levels of flexion and tension / relaxation.

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#3

I don’t think there is a right or wrong here as far as thumb position, however the straight arrangement allows you to change your thumb bend if you want, i.e. to alter the amount edge picking. I usually recommend players start with the straight / relaxed thumb for this reason, unless their technique is already working, in which case, ain’t broke don’t fix it.

However when it comes to pick “point” the logic is clearer. The pick wants to be oriented 90 degrees to its direction of motion. The only time the pick point you’re using here would really satisfy that is if you were using more of a Gypsy flex type wrist orientation:

In this case, the picking motion moves (roughly) side to side. So with the hand pointing down toward the guitar like Joscho is doing here, it requires a positive pick point to orient the pick roughly 90 degrees to its side-to-side motion. Michael Angelo Batio is another player with this setup.

So in your case, if you are moving the pick like a typical wrist player, where the path is close to parallel with the strings, this pick point would be “wrong”. For a more typical starting point, use whichever pick point orients the pick closest to 90 degrees to the way it is moving.

We will update that chapter in the Primer soon-ish, with clearer instructions. This will include showing how the pick point will auto-adjust in your grip to fit whatever picking motion you’re using. This is typically how it finds that 90-degree point, and why you don’t hear experienced players complain as much about the pick rotating in their grip, i.e. because it should, until it finds the spot where the picking forces keep it there.

#4

Thanks for taking the time to take a look and point me in the right direction, @Troy
Straightening the thumb seems to have helped me get a little more control in my picking, but may have changed the pick angle for me more than I was aware. After reading your post I took a look at the angle and it seems I was using the side of the pick and barely any point.

I spent a few hours trying to find a pick position that felt comfortable and was closest to 90 degrees. Here’s where I landed.

CTC_Pick_Grip_Pic
CTC_Pick_Grip_Pic4032×3024 1.69 MB

I’m noticing I favor a positive pick angle, but I’m curious of your opinion. I’m trying to eliminate as many factors as possible that have gotten in the way of my progression in the past and while I know there is no “right” way that works for everyone, I’m aiming to steer clear of the “wrong” way of doing things.

Thanks again.

#5

I think this is all academic until you show us the motion, whichever it is, that you are trying to do. Remember, all this pick geometry stuff only works in combination with certain picking motions. i.e. Batio uses the geometry he does because of his arm position and motion. Joscho is the same.

So the first order of business is to make sure you have a picking motion that is fast and fluid. Doesn’t matter which one it is. Have you gone through the table tap tests and recorded your values? Have you then gotten a tremolo working? Is is similar in speed / smoothness to the table tap tests? If not, then we can look at the pick stuff. Otherwise, we are putting the cart before the horse a little.

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#6

Makes sense. I’ve done the table tap tests,etc, but have not gotten a tremolo working with this latest grip.

I’ll get on that and then get a video of my picking and post it up.

Thanks.

#7

I used to worry over the bent thumb vs flat thumb for a long time. I wanted to use it flat, but it seems largely based on what I’m playing. Sometimes, it just does what it does. And as long as I get the sound I want, I have learned to not think or worry about it. James Hetfield plays with the most bent thumb you’ll ever see, and if he can do that, then why can’t I, lol.

I found it also has to do with the length of the thumb, and fingers, the whole hand really. Some people will find it more natural one way or the other. That’s not to say it doesn’t matter, exactly, but it only matters if it hinders you from doing what you want to do: play fast, play clean, etc.

I find the exact opposite when I play with a flat joint thumb: LESS precision. It becomes more of a wrist thing, rather than a combination of the two that I use (wrist AND some thumb and finger joint movement).

Speaking of MAB, it was his idea that ‘what you do playing slow, you do playing fast’ that threw me for a loop. I tried it for about a year before I realized, wtf am I doing? I was getting WORSE results. So unless something I was doing was really inefficient (and there were some phrases, for sure), then I should go with what feels natural FIRST…and then tweak.

I’ll say this: no matter WHAT you do, if you can do it for an hour a day or so?..it becomes more and more automatic to the point where you just don’t think about it much anymore. So much can be achieved when you apply yourself to a good practice routine and get time in! In doing so, unless your natural inclination is akin to Paul Gilbert and his “upstrokes only” way of holding the pick (wow!) for the first few years of playing, then whatever feels natural is a great starting point.

When I think about it, my model on how to hold the pick was Malmsteen: relaxes, hand not really rigid, and a bit of a mix of fingers curled but still gently touching the pickguard. Once I started working that, the rest fell into place. Your hand geometry is genetic, but even then, there’s a lot of ways to approach it in the beginning to make things easier for you in the future. Good luck!

#8

On speed kills Mike says at one point early on, “When you get that tremolo, that’s the way you pick fastest, that’s the way you pick best. Then you take that motion and you * begin * to slow it down.” I think he was right on point there, but I think he flubs the phrasing in a way that confuses the point before that and after that. The method I think he really means is to find the fast motion because that’s the efficient one, and then slow that down a * small amount *, and apply it to phrases. At least, that’s what we know to work and thus how I choose to interpret what he says there!

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#9

If you’re trying to find a motion that fits with the grip, that’s a little backwards. Just use any common grip where the pick is roughly 90 degrees and just try to go fast. Don’t death grip the pick. If it wants to move, let it. That’s all you need to do.

From that point, just get a fast motion going. We don’t care what kind it is. If the pick is grabbing the string incorrectly because of the grip, it will either adjust itself, or the fix will most likely be small and simple. What we really want is to find a joint motion that moves fast with minimal effort and maximal comfort.

2 Likes
#10

I may have misinterpreted it, as the first time I saw it was in print (Guitar World) and then I saw the video transcript. I remember in your video where it shows he uses two different (slightly) methods: he ‘locks in’ when picking at hyper speed, but when he played the passages slower, you’d see the slight amount of finger and thumb movement.

From what I read, it seemed like one was supposed to hold the pick the same way, whether picking fast or slow…and while that may work for Mike and others, I generally don’t mind having a bit of that extra movement when picking slower phrases. If my hand is too rigid in holding the pick, I find I lose dynamics and the ability to do pinch harmonics, etc. But it’s a bit of a double edged sword, as what I lose in dynamics may end up in a ‘missed note’ here and there. I take that chance; maybe I shouldn’t, lol.

All within reason, of course. I’m talking like general blues pentatonic licks played moderate to slowly. Once you get up that speed where the thumb ‘locks out’, it pretty much stays the same and that’s the most efficient way.

I can’t wait till my camera mount Kickstarter thing shows up so I can record what I’m doing and see if what I say and think actually corresponds to what I’m doing!!

#11

I wouldn’t read too much into the smaller details of whatever he was saying. There is nothing wrong with finger-oriented picking techniques. It doesn’t really matter if he was wrong on that point, which he probably was. When we interviewed him a few years back he talked about Danny Joe Carter’s finger-driven picking motion and how it’s super fast.

It also doesn’t matter if the motion when playing super slow is the same as what it is when playing fast. Instead, I think he was just saying that you can slow down fast efficient motions, but you can’t speed up slow inefficient ones. That’s why they have to be “the same”. I think he just stated it a little backwards and confused people.

In the bigger picture, he was right on the point that matters — efficient picking motion is the one that can go fast, so you should start there to find at least one that you can do.

Some pick grips allow the pick to flop over the string. Others that wrap more around the pick don’t allow that as much. They both seem to work fine when done correctly, and don’t impede playing at different volume levels, or different speeds. I wouldn’t worry too much about that.

At the end of the day, you need a motion that is fast and fluid. It’s the universal starting point. Any motion that works well at high speed, regardless of grip, can be slowed down and can offer any amount of dynamics or whatever else you’re looking for when done correctly.

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#12

What I meant to say was after adjusting my pick point from my original post to more of a 90 degrees position, I haven’t gone back to tremolo picking to get a fast motion going.

I’ve just been focusing on the pick point re-adjustment.

Hopefully I didn’t misunderstand you originally.

Thanks.

#13

I made Some recent discoveries in my ”thumbusing”, I was always keeping à Bent Thumb for ”shreddy” stuff, and a straight for strummming. But looking at players like Gilbert and Bettencourt, They often seem to flatten it out gradually for the middle strings, and When reaching the treble itS quite parallell. I started doings this some months Ago and got a better overall tone and fluency (Ie the feel/friction of the strings is consistent)