Hey everyone New to cracking the code and maybe this has been asked before so sorry if I’m repeating questions.
When first starting out with the six note pattern on one string, are slower reps at 70-80 bpm worth it? In one of the videos troy said something about “just doing slow practice won’t actually change the motion”. 80 is just about where everything falls apart and every now and then I can get into a rhythm where both hands sync up.
Is there a better way to practice these to sync the two hands? I can tremolo pick much faster than I can actually fret notes. Trying to focus on the first note of the pattern but surly you want all the other notes to sync up as well.
70-80bpm sextuplets? I wouldn’t recommend starting any lower than 115bpm sextuplets and if your goal is Shawn Lane levels of speed you should probably start with at least 145bpm sextuplets
Building speed is probably the wrong way to think about it as well. You start within the general ballpark of what you want to achieve and as the motion becomes more learned you’ll probably be able to do it at slightly higher speeds without losing it.
For example I learned my USX motion (ergonomic mouse, not tall ergonomic mouse) at 115bpm sextuplets and I can’t really go any faster than 135bpm sextuplets, if that was my goal I would experiment with a trailing edge grip and try to create the tall ergonomic mouse motion at 145bpm sextuplets.
With my DSX motion I found that starting with an accented upstroke (which took weeks to feel natural) helped with my sync, would be interesting if your tremolo motion is DSX. With USX I didn’t have that problem, the sync was there from the get-go but I had been trying to play with an USX approach for much longer
I think there is too much missing detail for most of us to be able to offer concrete suggestions. (e.g. What does ‘everything falls apart’ mean? Is it a hand-sync problem or picking speed problem or something else? Can you tremolo pick effortlessly and with clarity at high speed? Are you using the same picking form and motion when you add the left hand as when you tremolo?) Unfortunately, you may not know the answers to these questions, even if you think you do. And the appropriate next steps depend on the answers. (e.g If the problem is hand-sync, then focusing on the picking motion might not be the most effective approach, and vice-versa.) Fortunately, the solution is simple. Post a video, preferably a technique critique, since you’re a member. The experts will then guide your next steps.
To answer your stated question, yes, I believe slow practice is valuable, but not necessarily for building picking speed, and I don’t recommend the start slow and speed up kind of practice in any case. Practicing both slow and fast can help ensure you really have the material appropriately memorized, improve your internal clock, help improve your articulation skills and timing, and generally enhance your musicality. There’s a difference between ‘just practice slow’ and ‘also practice slow’, and your goals matter in that calculation. If you’re only interested in is speed rather than musicality the answer might be different.
Hey - as someone who also needed a long time to figure out the basics i want to add my 2cts.
First, what induction said is true, the appropriate next step depends on your overall situation.
If you can play a controlled and fast tremolo, then getting the left hand to synch up isnt so much a mechanical problem as it is a question of “finding” the right feel, position and the amount of tension where things begin to work.
The problem is that its actually pretty hard to evaluate yourself. I thought for years that i can play fast tremolo picking because i could fit a lot of notes in a bar. But actually you dont know what “fast and relaxed” feels like if you have never done it. I suppose if any of us could feel what an elite-player feels during shredding just for a minute, that would speed up progress enomously, just because now you have a reference point of what you are looking for in your own playing.
If i just had to make a wild guess, i would say that you are at a stage where you have to put your ears second and focus primarily on the haptic aspects of things. Thats based on the fact that you are playing in stringhopping-speeds, so you are most likely not using the tremolo picking motions in your actual playing and need to give your body a raw idea of what it is you are looking for. You can separate this into three steps:
Right hand: Playing a fast tremolo “somehow” is a necessary first step but next you have to be able to chunk this, in isolation without the left hand, as a sextuplet. I think this is obvious for more talented players but for me personally, it wasnt. I struggled a lot with the six note pattern for years. I could play it but it was just very unreliable. At one point i realized that i coulndt easily tremolo pick with a sextuplet feel. I was playing fourths. I really think this is an overlooked point when playing onestring licks. Its easy to trick yourself into thinking "yeah, i should be able to play this onestring-lick now because i can play X tremolopicked notes in a row. But your right hand still has to play the actual lick, not just X fast notes, otherwise it falls apart. So practice that first. You dont necessarily need a metronome i think, just focus on every sixth note and “remember” how the right hand feels. You should be able to play this for at least several bars without cramping up.
Left hand: Many say we shouldnt overrate the left hand because it is actually capable of doing most of the stuff we want from it when shredding without too much effort. I agree but i still think some basics are needed. Many beginners, and i definitly was one of them, just instinctivly press too hard and that can throw anything off balance - it desynchronizes the hands and can even lead to cramps in the right hand. I think you dont need much drill here or hours of legato, just set aside some minutes to play the six-note pattern with as little tension as possible in the left hand, try out different hand positions, do some repetionons with legato (focus on not cramping up). The goal isnt speed but to remember how a relaxed left hand feels when playing fast.
Synchronizing: When you put it together, totally forget how it sounds for now ! Your only focus should be to reactivate the chunking in the right hand and stay relaxed in both. If you get two repetitions that sound like your cat attacked your guitar but it felt like a fast sextuplet chunk and you hit the target note and you are relaxed, then you are on the right track. Throw in some repetitions of step 1 and 2 to remind your brain and hands what you want them to do and then go back, stay relaxed.
Again, if you are at a different stage that might not be the best strategy to move forward. My own personal bias might play into that advice but thats what helped me.
@Jacklr Thanks for the reply! I’m trying to use a DSX motion but maybe I should switch to a USX and see if that is any better. I’m still working through my first TC as well so I’m probably just jumping ahead and need to be patient.
@induction Everything falling apart means that my hands aren’t syncing up, and I’m also not fretting about the correct notes at the right time. Like you said, I may think I’m doing one thing, but on video, it might look different. I have a TC open right now and will try to post a video. I appreciate the info!
@J.P.Amboss, Thanks for the detailed response! I’ve been playing for years but never tried to add any speed to the motion. Putting my ears second is a great suggestion, but it might be easier said than done! I’ll try the steps you mentioned and see where I get! It will be a challenge to just focus on the pattern and feel and not how it sounds altogether.
I honestly don’t think the term building speed should necessarily conflate right hand picking motion with left hand accuracy and sync the way it seems to too often here - which is mostly to err towards a picking motion problem. They are two sides to the same coin, but I think way too often this forum really hyper fixates on right hand picking motion as a solve all, when it may just solve one of the sometimes many issues with fast playing.
Perfect hand sync is unfortunately the most boring and un-sexy aspect of this whole thing. But is essential for cohesive metronomic fast playing, and at some point there is no avoiding using a click.
One thing you can test is your left hand speed on its own just as you can your right. How fast can you legato a six note line to a fixed beat with your fretting hand only? Try to lock in with an easy 8 5 6 8 6 5 repeat etc. sequence on the high e string. Find the fastest tempo you can do that with left hand only, and that is probably your cap fretting speed. This typically means that no matter how adept your right hand motion is, you likely will not be able to play faster synchronized lines with your fretting hand technique, just as the converse is true for the picking hand. If your right hand has no problems playing at that same tempo on a single note or open string on its own with what ever right hand picking method you are using, you know you are at least likely physically capable syncing at that speed. Back it down in tempo only a bit, and see what you get when combining the two. This way you can kind of see where both hands stand independent of each other and where some of your focus needs to be allocated, and can serve as a good speed reference point
(Just for the sake of discussion, not trying to give advice to m-sargeant now)
Not saying you are wrong or anything, i just think the “left hand speed”-isolation thing is debatable.
Many are fans of it, Justin Hombach (a youtube teacher) for example is a defender of this method and recommends it. But i think in an Interview with Teemu, Troy says he never practiced hands in isolation (iirc). Teemu on the other hand (hah) does. Its propably a good exercize but is it necessary ?
Playing legato is a bit different than just fretting the notes. Technically its more difficult for the left hand to do a pulloff than just lifiting the finger up.
I think its absolutly possible to be faster while picking than during legato for many licks.
That’s a really good point, because there are several types of legato. We have the classical type where you pull straight down (even touching the thinner string positionally “lower” like a rest stroke). This is rarely used in rock but it would have major speed implications. Many rock guitarists do slightly pull down though and I’m assuming that’s the thing you’re addressing. Definitely more effort required there as opposed to just “lifting”, which is yet another type. Then lastly, we have the all-hammers approach where there are no pull offs. I view this as requiring more mental coordination, but in terms of physical effort it’s low. I think of this flavor as a great thing for guitarists to try that have reported sync issues.
It’s nice when we find things like a player using a DSX motion and they are trying to play USX licks. Explain the problem to them, they can correct almost immediately. This right/left stuff is unfortunately a longer project. I think there are probably many facets to it and trying some different things could help a lot.
Still, it’s worth noting that there are fretting hand postures that are just inefficient and that’s another possibility to address. A nice “start with speed” approach could be to take a pattern that’s very mechanically easy and play it as fast as possible with all hammers, just shifting the angle around until you get it feeling fast and comfortable. Most people can play index middle ring, OR index middle pinky (or the reverse of both) with decent speed. Some swear that they are faster with index ring pinky. Whatever the “easiest feeling” combo is, try playing fast triplets with it. Try different fret hand postures till it feels easy.
Even non guitarists can drum their fingers on a table pretty quickly (nervous habit to pass the time). Most of us have plenty raw capability but getting the fingers into a setup where they move efficiently is a worthwhile side project.
This is where it can be very contextual, Individual, and nuanced. Both can be true and false. At this point I’m going to start to quote our own, dearest JoeB here.
True, this is all very individual, we all do things differently and that’s a great thing. There is an another type, and that is a more percussive tapping motion with barely any pull down grab (note this type is usually best when used with a fair amount of distortion) This is the type I use, and don’t find it much different than plain fretting - but that is me, and I don’t expect this to be an absolute for anyone one else.
Yes, exactly! And this is where this whole thing was going. You do not even have to make a note sound, or play left hand only legato like you would for a lick. Although that would be awesome to do too. You can completely mute out the strings with you right hand. You just have to be able to make a somewhat discernible rhythmic sound close to how you would normally fret. This is same concept I suggest to people regarding economy picking too - just mute out as much as possible and listen to the rhythm of it. This isn’t an exercise, though you can certainly adapt it into one. It’s really a test, a listening one as well.
Absolutely. Like I mentioned before it is one of the most longest, boring-est, un-sexy aspects of this whole process, but it is necessary.
I’m not sure if it’s a speed thing or a stability/strength issue or both. But I guess this is a different convo.
If a picture is worth a thousand words, a video is worth a million. A video by Rick Graham is worth zero words though, since he always leaves me speechless. He demos it here
Yeah I like that. And I agree it is hard to visualize by the title alone. I’ve heard it referred to as All Hammers and Descending Hammerons. Probably there are others as well. Marshall Harrison is awesome at these too, and Holdsworth used them extensively (though not exclusively).
Before finding out about CtC I really wasn’t aware of the more modern virtuosos. Just the typical EJ, Yngwie, Satch and Vai were my main diet. I have been exposed to some seriously scary players since joining this forum. Rick is near the top of the list. He’s great at economy/sweep and is so articulate with those techniques it’s hard to tell he isn’t alternate picking. And he’s also great at alternate picking! I don’t l know that he’s kept the technique up but he’s posted a 1nps alternate picked Glass Prison cover that’s extremely clean and accurate. He’s capable of every legato type we’ve discussed here.
As if that isn’t enough he’s been conservatory trained in classical guitar. Classical guitar fretting and finger picking are such a different type of skill from electric playing that I consider that a different instrument altogether. And he’s highly competent/professional grade at it. It’s rare someone is that good at that many techniques, at the level he demonstrates them. On top of it all, he has great “feel” and musicality. He’s just amazing.
Now enough I <3 Rick, you may return to your regularly scheduled program.
I think it’s even older wisdom. Probably originates elsewhere spanning years and years and years. I think Troy Stetina even advocated a similar approach to fretting in general in his speed mechanics book from way back in the day.
Damn! That’s some sheltering. When I was a teenager, I had “Buttrock Frank” at the music store who could hook you up with the good stuff.
I think you meant to quote me there lol! I was using a little bit of hyperbole. I was aware of many more than those 4. Pretty much any virtuoso Guitar World had mentioned up through the mid to late1990’s I was into. Morse, Di Meola, Holdsworth, Gilbert, Petrucci, McLaughlin, Cooley etc. All the “boomer” virtuosos lol! But yeah any of the modern Internet guys that got exposure through YouTube or Instagram, I’d never heard of.
lol Yes, Rick seems like a genuinely super nice person. I wish he had some negative quality so I’d feel better about being angry at how much better he is than me.
