Cmcgee 902 picking motion critique

Technique Critique
#65

I do feel inside picking is more awkward than outside with this mechanic - changing strings on an upstroke on a lower to a downstroke on a higher string feels off. I think @Tom_Gilroy mentions this as a possibility in his video on picking Mode 1 which I think I’m somewhat close to here.

In particular, I feel like that outside string change on 5 string box arpeggio shapes from the A string to the D string throws me off in the ascending direction a lot.

I also have difficulty maintaining my grip without my thumb wanting to slide forward which you see in the video.

I keep making a lot of progress with this though -

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#66

Another practice note - concerning when to go slower and focus on form.

I now fall into a crosspicking form much easier - since I’m able to consciously access the form now, I’m working a bit more on slow playing and ensuring forearm and wrist extension happen uniformly each pick stroke while trying to make sure it feels right and relaxed. It seems like this is the right time to shift balance from just trying to hit the form with middle speed and focus on accuracy. I’m still practicing going faster as well.

If anyone has thoughts on changing modes of practice at certain places in the development of a technique I’d be interested in hearing from them - I know it’s been discussed in the forum many times. The distinction between practicing to find a technique and practicing to refine it seems like it should roughly follow:

  1. Rough exploratory phase, stick with some set patterns and try to play fast and relaxed and find a technique that allows you to go fast without tension, ignore sloppiness - focus on finding and keeping the right motions.
  2. Build familiarity with the technique until you can consistently arrive at the motion consistently when you sit and play
  3. Begin to introduce slower practice - thinking about performing the motion in more detail and what needs to happen at each point when playing
  4. Continue to refine - try new patterns, try with only right hand and then both hands etc., - as the technique becomes accurate, focus more on synchronization and variations, transition between other techniques etc.
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#67

That’s all in line with my understanding. Tough to practice a motion slow when you don’t know what the motion is. Now you know, so you can tell if you’re still doing it correctly when you slow down a little. This is sort of where I am with it. I still do not ‘own’ the motion though so I have to do little resetting now and again and make sure I’m not drifting into some brute force.

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#68

I tend to think the slow thing is really just for audiation purposes when learning to comprehend sound, and you just play as fast as your own genetics allows after you learn your way around major/minor melody. Then you just work from here, and makeup melodies to build upon. But finding ways to create melodies is the tricky part because I just dont know many tricks to writing nice melody.

#69

Decided to learn the CPE Bach Solfeggietto and try to do it all with crosspicking, it doesn’t feel terrible - I’ll try to get some kind of video up tomorrow. I still think wider picks feel better than the jazz III primetones I usually like. The John Pettrucci Tritips still feel the best

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#70

@Tom_Gilroy I was reading your replies in Troy’s crosspicking critique thread here:

And saw it mentioned you use elbow for string tracking - with this video accompanying

I’m curious about this because I see Andy Wood and I think Anton anchor at a fixed point on the bridge except for certain deviations - however I originally was doing exactly this because I practiced Jason Richardson’s 1 note per string exercises for sweeping wherein he essentially instructs you to get crosspicking up to 120 BPM triplets and then use that string tracking in your sweeping. My only problem was I didn’t ever quite feel as stable as a combination of elbow/wrist or elbow/forearm, which I wouldn’t want for crosspicking purposes.

Trying to determine if it’s just a hurdle I would need to practice through - also wondering if there’s any shoulder involvement in the tracking, as I use shoulder and elbow as well for sweeping.

#71

Thinking about this now, I think string tracking with my crosspicking technique was more complex than this.

I had thought that my contact point with my wrist (pisiform bone) was defining a particular string to be picked, and that that contact point tracked across the strings/bridge while crosspicking. There are definitely patterns where I perceive this contact point to be in continuous motion, tracking due elbow movement.

However:

I think there are some patterns where my contact point stays relatively settled.

I will say that I think “anchor” is the wrong term for what I do. To me, “anchoring” suggests that I’m fixed or held in a particular position. I apply very little force into the guitar (enough to dampen strings), and the contact point is more for a tactile reference. I never feel like I’m “lifting an anchor” when I want to relocate my reference point.

It’s very possible, but if it’s present it’s small enough or subtle enough that I dont perceive it.

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#72

I think we have a similar meaning speaking of anchoring - I’m not pressing particularly hard, it’s more of a stabilizer and reference point.

I think some of my issues with the Serrana piece stem from attempting to keep a fixed point the entire time although the arpeggios span all six strings, it becomes difficult to keep pick attack consistent and even if I choose an anchor point that allows me to reach all 6 strings and use thumb bending to keep the angle similar, the leverages become uncomfortable when tracking with the wrist and each string becomes a slightly different picking motion - such that maybe in other context I wouldn’t even notice the problem, but one note per string playing feels very unforgiving. I’ll try allowing my arm to track more and try to keep an eye on what it wants to do.

#73

Alright since I said I’d upload it here’s me struggling through the Solfeggietto - I think it’s already clear the technique is working well for it it. When I slow it down 15-20% or so from there I can play it pretty smoothly but I wanted this as a benchmark. I still don’t quite have it under my fingers either, since I started with it yesterday.

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#74

Aright, another day a little better - I think the pick grip is becoming more settled, I have to keep reminding myself and adjusting that, weirdly enough I feel like that’s a big thing impacting my crosspicking, just maintaining my pick grip. Uniformly using my forearm plays into that though - if I’m doing standard 902 I need to stick with it, if I’m using forearm motion with it - also need to stick with it, otherwise I end up with uneven enough attack that my pick starts slipping or wiggling out of where it needs to be. It kind of helps using the larger Dunlop tortoise picks but I’m back to using the JP signature Primetone 1mm Jazz IIIs which have a sharp edge compared to the Primetone Jazz III standards - those are too rounded and I can’t get the firm attack out of them.

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#75

I see youre still holding the pick a little closer to the middle of the thumb where it bends?

#76

I keep defaulting to that, I’ve realized it can be stable, I just have to get the angle of attack right. And if I lean my thumb towards its right side/edge it seems to help. My thumb does not want to stay bent very much lol.

I’m boiling it down to this principle - try to move the pick, see if it bends easily in any direction when I’m holding it, if not, and the angle of attack sounds good - it’s fine.

Maybe @Tom_Gilroy has some insights on this but when I use that center of my thumb I think my grip helps also pull my index finger back a bit from the strings. Shifting more towards the tip of my thumb leaves my index finger tip hanging free. Part of this is that I find it very uncomfortable to press the pick at all near the side of the nail on my index finger, it digs in and I can’t find a comfortable way to do it besides keeping the pick against my index finger DIP joint and the right edge of my thumb.

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#77

Whats the DIP joint?

#78

Last joint on the finger before the tip

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#79

May I suggest a few things?

First off all, lower your gain drastically!
It now is all just unwanted noise and lots off compression, which results in having no dynamics at all. I would even use a clean sound at this stage.

Second, take parts of the piece and practice those till you get the notes and fingering 100% right, then start combining them.
Now you are constantly making mistakes trying to correct them which distracts you from focusing on your picking technique.

Keep it up!

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#80

Just to clarify - the videos don’t necessarily reflect how I actually practice, just what happens every 2-3 days when I do force myself to play through it at a fast tempo. When I practice I try to loosely follow this approach - although I rarely actually follow the whole procedure of marking down the tempo per section.

In practice, I usually find the parts that are tripping me up and work through them as you’re suggesting. I do also vary the gain, although I haven’t done this one totally clean so maybe I’ll try that out for a while - my only concern is, I feel like with string skipping the gain really is unforgiving if you touch any strings so I’m a little conflicted, sometimes I feel like I can trick myself into thinking it’s cleaner than it is. But I’ll try it both ways.

I’ll take your advice and just do it clean for a bit, I think it also reduces some of the urge to speed it up prematurely when it’s clean - I’ve watched a lot of this series and Dean is always starting clean then transitions to gain (fun to watch if you’ve never seen it as he’s generally getting these difficult passages down within an hour or across like 2 practice sessions) Dean Attempts to Learn Ep.4: Paul Gilbert - YouTube

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#81

might just be me, but I’m only hearing audio out of left channel!

#82

My only comment regarding the gain to separate responsibilities. To me, picking the string skips is a drastically different problem to solve than the left hand fingering (or even right hand palm dampening) being clean. That said, to me it’s seemed from really early on that your picking hand is making a really good motion. Might be worth trying some of your fastest attempts sans gain though.

I don’t feel like Anton uses a lot of gain, he picks really hard and that helps with the aggressive sound. Definitely not Black Metal amounts of gain he is using though.

But as always, rock on! You’re sounding better all the time with this. I actually really appreciate you posting the super raw “part of the journey” type of clips you’ve been putting up.

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#83

It might be helpful also to practice whatever pattern you are working on right hand only, clean sound and all notes let ring out.

I find that sometimes swipes are hidden with left hand muting.

Having said that, it depends on what your goal is. Minor swipes don’t matter much if the left hand is muting them. I just find it helpful for my purposes, which is more chord arpeggiation, with notes ringing.

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#84

:100: on this. I think one of the possible benefits of this forum could be to see more people who developed wtfbbq picking chops on their entire “journey,” as you put it. When I was younger and more easily frustrated it definitely would have helped :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

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