Cmcgee 902 picking motion critique

Technique Critique
#41

@Tom_Gilroy one thing I’m a little unclear on with Paul is - in a lot of videos he looks like he’s using 902, or at least some form of DWPS form that includes a DSX mechanic, but when he swipes, it’s on upstrokes which shouldn’t happen unless he’s using UWPS with a DSX mechanic.

So when you mention transitioning to the 802 linear mechanic, is Paul doing that as well, and is that an UWPS motion for Paul where he swipes instead of adding the full USX mechanic Andy does? If so, does that mean he’s not remaining supinated on fast runs?

EDIT: Basically, he seems like he stays supinated all the time so I’m confused on why his swiping takes place on upstrokes rather than downstrokes

#42

Ive been conflicted about this because in the video demo where he shows step by step how to
Hold the pick, he shows it closer to the bony tip of the thumb. But later on in the video, when hes playing, it looks like the pick moves down a bit closer to the thumb pad. In some other shots, it looks like he holds it very similar to PG

#43

I think the important take away is that it should sit somewhere it won’t move without too much pressure so you can relax the wrist. Wherever that is for you is fine, I’m messing with a few different adjustments. The only point he’s really making is that if you hold it against your thumb pad it can move, and when I try to crosspick, that movement is way more noticeable so I just look for a grip that eliminates it comfortably.

#44

Again I think this is one of those aspects unique to him, that have been brought up in other threads. In some close up shots of his, he appears to be pretty neutral in terms of slant, and tries for a DBX escape. However, and this relates to the convo above, he likely doesn’t quite have the trajectory or arc to clear up’s during faster passages.

#45

To me, this looks to be reverse dart-thrower (802 motion path) with a little supination, an almost neutral slant and a lot of edge picking.

#46

I try to hold it like PG sometimes but its not natural for me. Its much much easier to hold the pick further down my thumb to where it bends and cradle it in there and it still works fine with the AO two finger support

#47

Here’s the full video that came from, which shows a bit more, including his muting position:

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#48

This is interesting because I was mentioning in the original thread I feel like some runs are more suited to switching to Dart Thrower orientation instead of Reverse - and shifting the forearm like that is sufficient to do that.

Although, I have a tendency to use pronation to get over the low strings which I’m trying to eliminate, and this seems more about emphasis on different articulation and being able to use both anywhere.

#49

Another small practice video -

A couple notes - the Paul Gilbert 4 note lick, starting on an upstroke, is actually kind of useful for getting the feel of the wrist motion isolated in a particular way. What I’m trying to focus on is letting my arm relax into downstrokes, and flex into upstrokes. This gives a bit of a bouncing feeling, but it continues to feel more controlled.

I have to get just the right amount of supination in my arm, which involved a lot of experimentation with leaning, slightly different angles even when I know the form is wrong etc. but I know when I have it because when it feels like I’m relaxing my wrist it falls into 2 position and escapes on the downstroke, and I’m able to flex right at that point and bounce my pick above the lower string, let it drop etc. and get a rhythm that I keep pushing faster until I mess up, or loose the feeling due to tension. Then I work on getting it back.

I think a descending string change on an upstroke is pretty awkward for me, for whatever reason, and needs to be really hammered into muscle memory. My hand seems to want to trick me into either economy picking the high note or otherwise get me starting on an upstroke on the first low note again one way or another.

Splitting the one note per string runs into ascending and descending halves also seems beneficial, and kind of indicates a problem changing direction.

I’m thinking both issues may be due to the massive amount of time I’ve spent on sweep picking where I’m always pronated when descending and supinated when ascending. I’m recently switched to sweeping with my palm anchored and moving more from the wrist, with some thumb helper movement, which I find to be pretty stable and a solid alternative so I can keep form for both sweeping and alternate picking.

#50

That was actually how I found a motion that would work for crosspicking. I just floored it ascending, over and over again. Then did the same for descending. Still a work in progress on my end, but I was happy that I found it without tons of effort or chasing a wrong motion.

Your clips are getting cleaner each time you post, keep up the great work!

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#51

Thanks! Since you’ve got a mechanic that works, how does it compare to just using an escape mechanic on string changes? Do you find yourself still leaning mainly on a linear motion for fast picking?

#52

It is hard to say at this point. I have changed almost everything about my playing since I found CtC so in ways I feel like a beginner again with a lot of this stuff. I have a USX motion that I can play some Eric Johnson stuff with. On my best days I can get that up to the 190’s for 16ths. I can also do a Dimeola type wrist movement that is almost that fast. I don’t have complete control over either yet which is why I feel like a beginner again.

So far with the crosspicking I am way beneath those speeds. Best are like 16ths around 140 or Tumeni notes eighth note triplet around 185 to 190. I have only been doing the crosspicking since late March though.

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#53

Only matters how cleanly and relaxed you can do it at. If that is relaxed thats real good man, and that is not beginner territory.

What I notice when I learn a new Stochelo solo from a song is that if it throws in a new lick, or alters rhythm of a Stochelo phrase this in of itself is a new picking pattern you have to learn. Much like you mean about never really fully grasping things, thats because you wont ever fully grasp it even if you know the rules. Because you can always get thrown an oddball or a curveball situation that can follow the picking rules perfectly yet still feel foreign to your hands. Music is a sound language after all, the body language mechanics is just the motions required to say it.

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#54

I think I’m at a point with alternate picking that I really just need to refine things - if I play this run I think it’s somewhat clean at 240 triplets, so about 180 bmp 16ths

It could be cleaner though.

If I let myself swipe, especially on descending runs, I can push up to maybe 200 BMP 16th but it’s not always perfectly synchronized

I found that when I focus on the relaxed 902 wrist movement for a while beforehand I am more consistent and even in faster bursts though, so I’m hoping as I continue with the DBX practice it’ll translate into more controlled linear picking as well. It feels like swiping is a natural extension of 902 DBX just flattening out, instead of cutting over to dbx by introducing new escape motions, and I think my preference would be to hone in on muting swiping well, but I will continue to work on linear picking with different escape motions regardless.

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#55

Sounds killer!

And yeah I think doing a variety of these movements probably helps the motor learning and they all start assisting each other. If nothing else, I think it’s fun to learn new techniques. I know playing actual is the endgame, but the journey can be fun too.

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#56

I find sometimes i have to just practice a lick that gets my wrist motion moving more freely like an arpeggio or the anton/guthrie lick from the video because often my hand and wrist will default back to old ways so i have to consciously snap out of it until it becomes muscle memory

Edit: This AO lick from recent video

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#57

A couple of things here - for some reason I can relax more if I allow forearm movement on downstrokes, and I have trouble relaxing my wrist fully with a bent thumb so I tried using my thumb knuckle to hold the pick - if I allow both changes I get this (playng @joebegly 's tab as an alternative to tumeni )

#58

Sounding and looking good!

What are you doing for noise control? Is there some palm dampening or something that’s keeping the notes separated? I always practice this clean or acoustic and let the notes ring

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#59

So I always practice fretting hand muting, especially with all the sweep picking work, and Jason Richardson mentioned one thing Jeff Mills would do when instructing correct fretting form was to randomly swipe his pick behind his fretting hand as a check that none of the strings would ring out - but really it’s about ensuring at all times you have your fretting hand covering the strings higher than the one you’re playing (including when you descend - so you cover them back up and mute any ringing and you should feel them mute the vibration as you fret the next note).

As a result, I consciously try to always keep the fretting hand positioned such that the higher strings are covered by some part of at least one of my fingers. Part of why I keep my fretting hand angled. When I play the first note of the first arpeggio with my index it’s ringing until I fret the second note and I feel my middle finger dampen it as I fret and so on.

Then with my right hand I usually am just letting the side of my hand take care of anything lower than the fretted string, but I’m not really using it here for the G B E strings. Here’s the result when I do mute with the edge of my hand:

I’m using a slightly different form which I’m also getting comfortable with that’s I think all wrist movement - another thing with my practice is, thanks in part to I guess some sort of FOMO anxiety, I have to practice every way that seems to kind of work until one of the ways is really clearly superior to the other for me and then I keep checking anyway just in case it subconsciously develops :call_me_hand:

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#60

When I was developing my single-string movement (pure RDT, I think) I had to do the same. On bad guitar days I still have to fool around until my hands remember how to make it work. I really think this is normal.

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