That also reminds me - just wanted to add the detail that I exclusively use trigger grip all the time - although at one point as a teenager I did the reverse almost Marty Friedman style picking where I push my thumb back.
This is starting to sound great! Fair play!
Which part of the palm do you anchor with?
1 Like
I agree with imitating form and imitating results. If I just try to go by the terminology, I get too confused because my brain is very literal. I just have to go by what I see and do my best in that regard
2 Likes
@Tom_Gilroy I noticed that Anton and notably, the few students of Anton’s I’ve found videos of online, sit their guitar on the right leg - Paul Gilbert does this also. To access the higher frets just angle the neck out and lean the guitar body back against yourself - which you might think is just due to the of advantage of maintaining similarity to live playing, if you happen to do the lean back and provide right leg support.
What I noticed though, and maybe I’m off base on this but going by feel, it seems plausible - my right arm is much more willing to stay supinated and I can now rest my forearm without pronation, and I think maybe anatomically this makes sense, just observing that my forearm will pronate when reaching across the body to the opposite side if I follow the path the guitar body would move changing from right leg to classical position.
Maybe that is part of the stability - especially because Anton and Paul have their right hands up higher on the bridge/body of the guitar than Andy Wood, who sits roughly in classical position. For me to feel stable in classical position I need to be very near flat palmed, with the radial side of my palm touching more of the strings and limiting movement a bit on the low strings due to the more limited range of motion of radial deviation vs ulnar deviation.
Yes, this is an interesting observation. I don’t know if Anton specifically teaches that his students should sit with the guitar on their right leg (I haven’t watched his courses), maybe @guitarenthusiast would be willing to comment.
I wrote a comment sometime ago on the differences in ergonomics between sitting and standing. You might find it interesting.
No, you’re not off base at all.
There is a relationship between shoulder rotation and forearm rotation. Generally, pronation occurs with internal rotation of the shoulder, and supination with external rotation. The bicep has function both as a shoulder flexor and a forearm supinator.
For many, sitting with the guitar on the right leg results in less internal rotation of the shoulder of the picking arm, and would allow for more comfortable supination.
Sitting with the guitar on the left or right leg also affects the amount of shoulder abduction required in our picking arm. Generally, our shoulder abducts with external rotation and adducts with internal rotation.
Attempting to internally rotate with abduction or externally rotate with adduction is uncomfortable. Infact, the two primary shoulder locks in MMA/BJJ, the Kimura and the Americana locks, involve forcing the shoulder into these orientations. Generally, anything that you try to do to an opponent in an MMA fight is something you should avoid doing to yourself.
In a given position, muting at the bridge with the pinky side of the palm (as Anton and Paul do) requires greater abduction than muting with the heel of the palm or the base of the thumb. To make this comfortable requires either that we allow our shoulder some external rotation, or that the guitar is lower. You’ll notice that when Paul sits, he has greater external rotation and that he prefers to stand with the guitar very low.
2 Likes
Pretty interesting. There was some other thread on here recently where I speculated if the classical position organically promotes a setup more conducive to DSX. Small sample set, but the few high profile players I can think of who use the more classical seating do not fall into the Yngwie/EJ camp where the comfy supinated setup gels with USX. They are either primary DSX like Batio or Cooley, or more neutral but still not very supinated , like Petrucci. Makes sense how balancing on the right leg, pointing the guitar headstock a little more away from our body and slightly leaning the shoulder of the picking hand back allows for more ease in forearm rotation for a mechanic and thus USX. At least, makes sense now in the context of your comment about external rotation of the shoulder being a contributing factor. Thanks for the insight @Tom_Gilroy
1 Like
Or, it’s the almost mythic unicorn pronatated USX dart-thrower motion with a reverse grip, as used by Shawn Lane.
Remember the recent thread with video of Preston Black using the same basic motion while sitting in classical position.
1 Like
I play forearm/wrist usx sitting in the classical position. I don’t feel it’s any harder than when I try on the right leg. I do find though, that I can’t track as well when the guitar is on the right leg. I can’t comfortably move the arm up when descending. When on the left leg, the arm feels more free.
Interesting - I thought you’d mentioned Shawn was a reverse dart thrower player but I found a video of him describing the reverse grip etc.
I’m curious if RDT has an advantage over DT in terms of muting? I play pronated USX pretty naturally but always have issues with palm muting. Does the reverse grip allow him to have more string coverage with the meat of the thumb side of the palm? I used to use a reverse grip as a teenager so I could always try falling back into that way as well.
Thinking I’ll just keep posting progress pretty frequently here even if I don’t necessarily feel like it’s a breakthrough - Here’s me playing serrana once on the left and once on the right leg.
I warmed up some prior until I felt like I could maintain the looser hand feeling with some consistency. I’m trying to work ony my pick grip to match what Anton suggests in his video on pick grip. I’m not sure if the right leg will end up winning out, it seems like maybe once I get used to it - maybe it’ll be preferable. I also tried simulating the leaned shoulder with the left leg, it felt a bit like having the guitar in a headlock but that it could add some stability as well.
I’m also doing sloppier, faster takes when practicing focusing on trying to find the movement with each different setup I try out. These are kind of in between, testing out what I can do if I try and balance accuracy and feel.
2 Likes
I play with it on the right leg with the neck angled out most of the time, but will switch legs often, and quite honestly I don’t notice much of a difference in my playing or how I hold my hand to the guitar or any of that as much between the two either.
1 Like
I think there is more than sufficient capability for muting with both dart-thrower and reverse dart-thrower. For me, the biggest function of the reverse grip with the dart-thrower action is that it reduces the “garage spikes” feeling and helps the upstrokes and downstrokes feel more even.
Just to be clear here, I wasn’t at all suggesting that we can’t use a supinated form with the guitar on the left leg, that we can’t use a pronated form with the guitar on the right leg, or that we can’t find a form which can accommodate both seated positions. I’m just discussing a general relationship between shoulder rotation and forearm rotation.
I can’t be sure without actually seeing your form, but I imagine this is related to your range of motion of shoulder abduction with internal rotation.
If you’d be willing to share, I’d be very interested to see a video of you tracking your USX form comfortably with the guitar on the left leg, and then switching the guitar to the right leg and showing the uncomfortable tracking pattern.
My impression when I tried an experiment doing this last week or maybe it was two weeks ago now, is that it was pretty clumsy and “spikey” to do without a large degree of edge picking, and it was the edge picking that was chiefly responsible for any smoothness or evenness it had. it maybe likely just my unfamiliarity with it, but I didn’t really see where it really had an upper hand compared some of the other motions when combined with the same amount of edge picking.
I think there are a few specific benefits of the dart-thrower movement from reverse grip which are general.
The movement follows a path defined solely by the antagonist group flexor carpi ulnaris (FCU) and extensor carpi radialis longus & brevis (ECRL & ECRB). It’s one of only two wrist paths defined by a single antagonist group. As such, it’s easy to coordinate and can be performed very quickly.
However, dart-thrower and reverse dart-thrower have different relationships with forearm rotation. Forearm rotation complements the reverse dart-thrower action, creating a path with a small radius (hence greater curvature) and allows for escapes in both directions. Forearm rotation compounds with the dart-thrower action, creating a path with a longer radius (less curvature) and favoring the upstroke escape.
As we increase in speed, our movements naturally become smaller and will eventually become too small to be effective. Because the dart-thrower action with rotation naturally describes a longer path, this degeneration will occur at a higher speed.
As we move the pick faster, we need to hold the pick more tightly to ensure consistency. This results in increased resistance from the string (and greater attack). To reduce these effects, we can introduce a greater degree of edge picking. However, if we choose a high degree of leading edge picking, we need to create greater flexion of the thumb and index finger, bringing the pick close to the wrist and further shortening the radius. With trailing edge picking from the reverse grip, we achieve a much higher degree of edge picking (easily 70 degrees), while actually lengthening the radius.
There are other features which I personally find valuable, but I perceive some disadvantages of the form also.
Tom, there’s something I’ve been curious about: how easy is it for you to switch between your DT mode and RDT mode? Specifically, how smooth does it feel to you to switch between the trailing-edge and leading-edge grips?
1 Like
Sounds good! I’ll try make a video soon and I’ll tag you. I’m pretty sure you are correct here though as after reading this, I sat down and noticed the big difference in where the shoulder is in the two postures.
I could probably alter my form in a way that could allow me to play on the right leg, which I would actually be interested in doing. Save me having to use the footstool all the time!
Ah, but let’s talk about the implication of this from a tonal perspective, and I know this is totally subjective. To me, the pure physics are one thing, and the practical application another. There’s always a balance to be be struck somewhere.
In other words, We want to play fast, but we also want to sound good doing it. There’s no free lunch.
High degrees of edge picking like that, (70 degree) where you are now pretty close to 90 degrees, tends to obscure the attack, and articulation of the notes quite a bit, sometimes to the point that the notes are incomprehensible, you primarily just hear the sound of the pick rubbing against the edge of the string (and the subsequent harmonics it generates which can sound like a whine over the plain strings) over the actual pitch of the note.
Now the question is: Is that added capability of being able to utilize a steeper degree of edge picking really of practical benefit? Maybe it’s more personalized.
There’s almost certainly a way to compensate for the feel on both legs considering Andy Wood opts for left leg - I think @Tom_Gilroy honed in very well on why in particular 902 could be more comfortable on the right leg.
But, I tried out getting some similar feel on the left leg to make supination more natural by rotating my shoulder, leaning forward with the guitar body leaned a bit more with the top against my ribs, and my forearm rested on the top, and I was able to get to where the supinated forearm feels more natural, and the wrist feels more stable without trying to involve forearm rotation. It kind a feels like putting someone in a headlock.
@Fossegrim one thing I noticed was using Anton’s pick grip suggestion here, it seemed to work pretty well with this RDT movement, because I do tend to push with the soft pad of my thumb, and I did originally just go with the wiggle a bit when relaxing for 902 movement, so angling it a bit closer to the tip with a slightly bent thumb improved my attack and kept it stable enough to reduce the angle and push through the string.
Edit: I mention this because I think Anton genuinely does have really solid attack/dynamics and I’m not a fan personally of PG style edge picking (although tbh I think his is a stylistic choice since he articulates just fine whenever he needs to - and I think he actually does the exact same thing, bend the thumb a touch in order to press on the pick from a flatter surface closer to the tip of the thumb)
I think what you don’t like about PG’s edge picking is more recent (well I would say 12years recent), and a lot of that likely has to do with pick choice. Sometime around the late naughts he switched from using a fairly heavy pointed pick, to using a standard .60mm rounded Dunlop tortex, which tends to really exacerbate string scratch and the same whine I mentioned above even with minimal edge picking. Edge picking and pointy picks complement each other. Before this point I would say PG had the same solid attack you are describing, and holds his pick very close to this (I actually do the same because I copied him). You can hear a huge difference in his sound and attack just by watching his older instructional like terrifying guitar trip etc.
One thing that is interesting that I notice recently with PG is that he changed the way he holds the pick, extending his index finger more and holding the side of the pick with the pad. Part of me wonders if holding the pick the way he has for years has lead to some arthritis, or is plain uncomfortable for him now. I know he has hinted at similar things regarding pure alternate picking.
I can’t transition between movement types in the middle of a line, I need a brief pause. The transition from leading edge grip to trailing edge and vice-versa is very quick and easy to do.
Great, looking forward to seeing it.
We can have that discussion.
Yes, I totally agree.
I agree that high degrees of edge picking obscures attack. I agree that with a 351 or 346 style pick, the resulting notes would be poorly articulated and often incomprehensible. Further, I would agree that with a standard pick, this result in uselessly rubbing the edge of the pick on the string and accomplishing nothing.
However, I don’t use a standard pick. I use the Eric Johnson Jazz IIIs almost exclusively, and with a small, pointed pick like a Jazz III this movement and grip is effective and is sonically pleasing to me. The pick cuts decisively through the string sounding a clear note with a softened attack. The pick move in it’s own plane, meaning there is no scratch on the wound strings.
For me, this grip and movement pattern are heavily pick dependent. I could not and would not use it with a standard pick.
In fact, the tonal characteristics of this picking method are one of the features of this method which I personally find valuable.
The first method of picking I developed as a teenager had a very hard, percussive attack like Paul Gilbert or Steve Morse. With that method of picking, I simply could not soften that attack. It is simply a feature of the method of picking.
However, I have always preferred a softer, rounder attack, which blends more naturally with legato. Something more like Eric Johnson.
I learned how to imitate Eric Johnson’s form and achieve the characteristic soft, blooming attack. One key to Eric’s form and tone is a relatively soft hold on the pick. I also developed a reverse-dart thrower form, which has a softer attack than my original form, but which also facilitates hybrid picking and sweeping.
However, speeding up these forms (both from a standard grip) necessitates a tighter hold, which begins to introduce the hard attack I try to avoid. I feel this becomes particularly pronounced when I take a firm hold with my reverse dart-thrower form.
There are high speed forms I am not interested in imitating for tonal reasons. Some forms involve compromises which I am not willing to make. For example, I don’t particularly enjoy the sound of high speed elbow mechanics, and I don’t enjoy the shrill sound of Roy Marchbank’s technique.
However, I do enjoy the sound of Shawn Lane’s picking. This is one of the primary reasons why I have devoted so much time to analyzing his form and learning to imitate his mechanics.
There are other aspects which I value. I like that it’s primarily a USX from, meaning the picking sequences are (mostly) consistent with the Eric Johnson form. I like that my middle finger is still available for hybrid picking. I like how the grip can go from extremely loose to rock solid without a significant change in form, and without applying a torque to my index finger (as can happen in a standard grip).
I don’t think the form really facilitates sweeping (except ascending 2 string sweeps) or any prolonged DSX. The reverse grip makes pinch harmonics very difficult.
I wouldn’t use this method on an acoustic guitar. However, on an acoustic guitar I much prefer playing fingerstyle anyway.
4 Likes