Counting beats all wrong or perfectly normal?

Playing Technique
#1

Hey guys,

Since joining this site, I’ve noticed how prevalently you all use the metronome. I’ve never really used the metronome because every time I’ve tried, I feel like I struggle way more than I should and have to play way way way slower with the metronome than I can without. Well today I decided to give it another go and felt like I had made some progress because I could count my beats on one string up to 185 bpm (comfortably). I know, it doesn’t sound like a huge achievement but for me it is.

Well I tried applying this newfound skill to this lick I’ve been focusing on (3 nps for 3 strings with dwps and a sweep) and I could still use the metronome and stay in sync with it… but I could no longer count the beat with the note I’m playing it on. So instead of counting 1 beat every 4 notes, the best I can manage is counting the beat while playing but not really connecting the two. I’m still in sync but I can’t connect the beat with the particular note I’m playing if that makes sense.

So I thought “maybe it’s just because I’m less familiar with this lick”. So I try to apply it to the first thing that pops in my head that I’ve played forever (1 note on the A string, 5 on the E, and repeat). “Hooray, I can count the beat along with the specific note I’m playing at that time again! …Wait, that’s not 4 notes per beat.” … I’m counting 6 notes per beat which sorta makes sense because that’s a fairly standard time signature and the lick does repeat after six notes right? But why can’t I count four notes per beat anyway? Shouldn’t I be able to control that with my mind? I went back to the 3nps string and found that I still can’t exactly tie the specific note and the beat together the way I can on a single string but I did notice that the beat I’m counting is landing on the first note of each string (so 3 notes per beat).

Hopefully all of that made sense. If it did, can anyone tell me if this is a normal problem (not being able to play 4 notes per beat on varying sequences) and possible remedies if others have faced this problem? Or maybe just that this is normal and counting 4 notes per beat regardless of what you’re playing isn’t normal?

Josh

#2

If I understand correctly - you are able to keep time (count the beats) using 6 notes per beat (sextuplets) but struggle with four notes per beat (16ths). If that’s the case - I did run into that myself when I was practicing only one of those subdivisions (in my case - sextuplets). I though I had alot of work ahead of me but I just slowed down for a few minute each day, did the 16ths slowly, then brought it back up to speed and it clicked pretty quickly.

#3

Sort of, it depends on what I’m playing. Playing one note on one string, 16th notes is easy. Playing 3 nps across 3 strings, I can sort of count 3 notes per beat (triplets?). And playing the lick that I think is a PG lick (1 note on the A and 5 on the E), I can easily count sextuplets. But if I try to count 16th notes on the 3 nps lick or the PG lick, it completely breaks down to the point where I’m struggling to count the beats after the first at at all regardless of speed.

Just now, I tried 3 notes on the same string (16th notes) and I can sync it up with the metronome but I can’t consciously tie the beat to the note. That’s at 40 bpm. Is that how slow you mean when you say you slowed it down for a few minutes each day?

EDIT: In short, I can’t play the same lick with varying time signatures.

#4

Ah, the PG is difficult for me too if I just use it on repeat going for 16ths as well…it’s very repetitive and the accent is so…ingrained.

When I slow things down I just mean slow enough to verbalize “1 e + a 2 e + a etc…” while I playing it. I like to know exactly what notes are on the beat. No specific metronome setting. Slow enough to verbalize the subdivisions. Then I go for it at speed again.

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#5

Wow, vocalizing each note with the “e & a” makes a huge difference and I can see the path to getting rid of them now lol. Thank you!

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#6

Totally relate. I had to work REALLY hard to learn to count and keep time. I always played best on feel, which is valid… but trying to write and record and jam with people it’s not as practical.

It’s a skill like any other, I practice it daily.

For me, through CtC I found a thread on konnokal (spelling?) and that totally changed things for me. Almost an immediate massive improvement in keeping time.

I also always used chunking as a default. But my chunks never changed size. You mentioned the PG lick, that’s one that always came super naturally to me and I could rip it way faster then I should have been able to with all my other techniques well behind.

I now try to count and visualize or vocalize (internally and externally) each note, only when I can no longer “see” them do I rely on chunking.

This is basically like hedging my bets in my mind.

Some days I can get up to 180-190bpm still “seeing” or “hearing” each individual note.

Now this is the cool part.

When the tempo gets too fast for “t I k a t I k a t I ka t I k a” I go “tik, tik, tik, tik” focussing only on the one.

I can do this in chromatic 16ths up to 240bpm.

Now the even cooler part.

When that first note visualization is no longer possible.

I chunk two tikas and focus just on nailing the 1 and 9th notes.

I’ve been doing this for a little over a week and I’m now hitting 280bpm 16th note chromatics.

I haven’t “maxed out” yet. I always work up for 100 bpm and that’s just how fast I’ve made it to. I’m still quite comfortable at 280.

I haven’t filmed it so I don’t KNOW for a fact I’m picking every note, but it sounds tight and that’s good enough for me.

Just for comparison, prior to CtC and this counting I had the same difficulty you described and it started around 120bpm. On a good day I could get to 160bpm and know where I was but it was all up to luck. 200bpm 16th notes where just a shot in the dark.

“Send up a prayer and hope you land in your feet”

I’m AMAZED at how fast and tight I can play now and actually be in control, improvising and knowing where and what I’m doing.

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#7

I would 86 the guitar and just focus on what subdivisions sound like. There’s a lot of great advice here and I would try them all.
I had a teacher who said if you’re going to practice with a metronome, make it disappear. Meaning set it at a comfy tempo and just hit quarter notes. Do that for a bit and when you can’t here the metronome add in 8ths. “1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and”. When you got that add in 16ths. “1-e-and-a-2–e-and-a-3-e-and-a-4-e-and-a”. All the while you shouldn’t hear the metronome. From there you should get a solid base on subdivisions.

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