Cracking the THEORY code

[RockStarJazzCat]

It seems more productive to practice runs that outline specific chords, or tensions, etc. this way certain runs will be ingrained and although will likely sound predictable[.] After a point, they can be used as a fall back and to support ideas as they come. So my main focus is to work on mechanics and lines simultaneously now

@Tahoebrian5, you brought up the example of where you ended up on scalar 4 when playing a line in triplets. I brought up a melodically simplistic but hopefully illustrative example that used chromaticism to keep chord tones on the beat.

One might consider telling a story melodically, strictly with triplets and their inversions and their diatonic neighbors. That is, using the triplet forms as chunks, and explore going to others in a relatively horizontal manner, without trying to incorporate passing tones right away. (And thanks again for sharing the Ted Greene clip on the other thread.) There are of course “rules” out there to play with regarding the same (progression, voice leading, function, etc.), but given the examples you gave the other day, seems like that might be just the ticket for keeping this kind of exploration bounded and creative?

Just a thought, and I’ve probably determined what I’ll be playing with all weekend. Happy Friday gang!

[Tahoebrian5]

Yep I totally get how the bebop theory can be used to adjust landing points, thanks for mentioning this as it’s definitely related to what I’m working on. Just one of many possibilities. Skipping scale degrees or changing direction also works. I think the main point is being aware of this and secondly being able to do these runs with aligned chord tones as second nature.

What is frustrating is I keep coming up with really nice sounding lines, then I forget them. I’m going to have to come up with a method to catalog my keepers.

[RockStarJazzCat]

Won’t work for everyone, but I’ve started journaling fragments of lines in solfege.

[Tahoebrian5]

I cannot begin to imagine how you put Solfege to use in remembering lines. The only thing that comes to mind is the sound of music.

[Tahoebrian5]

Back on the original topic,

I’ve had a few interesting things come up in further developing these ideas.

First, I find interesting effects can be had by playing with different division of where the chord tones fall. My original example was C23, C23, etc (for this post C means chord tone so instead of typing 123, I replace the number with c)

If doing quarter notes , the most obvious are C2C4, and C234. I’m getting some really nice lines mixing these quarter notes up. For example: C234 C234 C2C4 C2C4 C. It’s kind of challenging finding three notes in a row that sound good and are not chord tones. Using some repeated or chromatic tones is the easy way out here.

Second idea I’m working on involves moving these lines between chords. The Jazz theory of guide tones (7-3 resolutions for anyone not familiar) is nice but too restrictive to use all the time. One way to branch out is write out the notes of the two chords, find all the notes that are 1/2 step apart, and use these as your modified guide tones.

[RockStarJazzCat]

(In writing this I seem to have totally missed @Tahoebrian5’s point! Apologies! )

@Tahoebrian5

First, I find interesting effects can be had by playing with different division of where the chord tones fall. My original example was C23, C23, etc (for this post C means chord tone so instead of typing 123, I replace the number with c)

If the patterns are meant to be use with any chord type, I’d use a numeric reference as well, to indicate position. 1-3-5, 1-b3-5, etc.

I cannot begin to imagine how you put Solfege to use in remembering lines. The only thing that comes to mind is the sound of music.

The original solfege system has “Do sharp,” “La flat,” etc., and was intended to be used in teaching diatonic melodies. The “chromatic” solfege returns the singability to more complex musics.

I’m not sure I ever saw the initial example fully formatted. With a major triad, your “C23,” is Mi-So (mee sew), or in a minor triad, Me-So (may-sew). Solfege syllables use Italian pronunciation. The full minor triad in root position being Do-Me-So, and the full minor seventh chord being, Do-Me-So-Le (doh-may-sew-lay).

I shouldn’t derail your thread further, but I believe there is great power in decontextualizing melodies from key and position on string, fretboard, keyboard, etc.

[RockStarJazzCat]

…uh, in short, singing (or at least hearing) is important to musicality, and the tools with which we have to describe the actual thing we are doing on the fretboard scaffolds the learning process, auditorily, etc. So much the better if it helps to point out the similarities with what we already know. (Common melodic fragments and our emotional reaction to them.)

[Tahoebrian5]

I think you missed my point, probably wasn’t very clear. I’m referring to beats not notes or intervals. As in 123 123 123 for triplets. Then just putting a C where I’m lining up chord tones. I’m just trying out different patterns and trying to come up with a method to be able to put these together on the fly.

It’s crazy how many lessons and examples are out there on the net that do not address the chord tone placement. For me it’s been the missing link.

[RockStarJazzCat]

Doh! I probably did miss the point. So, C23 refers to a triplet where the first note is a chord tone?

@Tahoebrian5

It’s crazy how many lessons and examples are out there on the net that do not address the chord tone placement. For me it’s been the missing link.

Agreed. Guitarists in particular get taught scales against chords. Classical musicians with an ear towards composition are taught melodic and functional counterpoint. Essentially rules of (sometimes dated) aesthetics. I do not look to guitarists for the best examples of melodic development. We, as a species, have been too busy trying to Crack the Code.

If one can solo with strictly chord tones, one gets closer to hearing which chord tones, which is a step beyond placement of a chord tone. As you know from your jazz study, scalar 7 resolving to scalar 3 tends to have more impact than blander transitions. Entire solos are built on chord tones alone, in both the classical guitar repertoire, and as sometimes demonstrated by jazz educators.

[Ernest_W_Retallack]

Practicing using chord tones alone is a great way to get a tune’s harmony into one’s ears and under one’s fingertips. But, on the other hand, it’s easy to loose sight of the bigger picture which is the overall shape, contour and direction of the line. A good jazz line sounds so because it has a certain shape and evolves a certain way. Pat Martino is good example. Metheny too. Mclaughlin certainly is. So is Michael Brecker. Or Steve Coleman.
Generally speaking, I don’t buy the criticism against scales. I firmly believe that when-at the late 50’s-various jazz players started using them consciously as means to organize melodic and harmonic phenomena, that was major, major step forward-a giant one. I have right in front of me the Straight No Chaser transcription of Tran’s solo from Miles’s LP Milestones, recorded April 2, 1958-transcription by David Baker. Gentlemen, such music wouldn’t have existed without the strong grasp of scale the man had. All kinds of them-you get M.M modes, Major modes, HW diminished-of course. And, yes, at chorus 6, bar 6 there’s even a descending two octave dominant bebop scale-in 32ds at 168 bpm by the way.
There are several great books out there that demonstrate good ways of practicing scales-and chord tones, for that matter. Hal Crook’s How To Improvise is full of ideas and so is Mark Levine’s The Jazz Theory Book. In the latest you can find what he calls “the continuous scale exercise” where you play the appropriate scales though any jazz tune, in even chord values, connecting each to the next by moving to the next available scale tone without changing the line’s direction. If it happens that that scale tone is-alas-the natural 4, and it sounds bad to you, modify it in real time.
Still, we should keep in mind that it’s the direction and shape of the line that really counts. If the chord is Cmaj7 and we superimpose a series of diatonic arps over it as in Em7-Dm7-Cmaj7, then that F in Dm7 doesn’t sound like an “avoid note”, does it.:)

[Tahoebrian5]

Some good points you brought up Ernest. I suspect the guys that hate on scales, know a lot of scales! It’s like when rich people tell you that money doesn’t matter.

What I really need, and I’m not sure it exists, is material in writing lines that is geared towards rock, blues, and metal. And that has the sophisticated knowledge required regarding chord tone placement and other topics. I am realizing these books mention for jazz study have all this knowledge in them but I really never liked the sound of jazz. I’ve always been fascinated by the jazz knowledge and theory that is obvious to me when I listen to it, but I could never get inspired to actual learn any standards. Anyone happen to know any non-jazz line writing books out there? No offense intended to the jazz crew at all. I actually tried really hard to get into jazz and eventually realized it’s just not for me.

[Sorc]

I would love to know about this as well. All the theoretical stuff seems to be either about classical music or jazz. And it’s definitely interesting, but not all that applicable to rock.

[RockStarJazzCat]

Anyone happen to know any non-jazz line writing books out there? No offense intended to the jazz crew at all.

There are definitely books on melody writing out there geared towards pop composition. Awesome if someone recommends a great one. All are likely to refer to studies coming out of the classical world in one way or another.

[RockStarJazzCat]

All the theoretical stuff seems to be either about classical music or jazz.

Even if one finds stuff directly targeting rock, all of the above borrows from, or incorporates, centuries of melodic theory. Tricky part for me is knowing where to look in order to not get bogged down in that which is subjectively irrelevant.

[RockStarJazzCat]

@Tahoebrian5

It’s like when rich people tell you that money doesn’t matter.

Haha. I mean, you’ll play the event for free, right???

[RockStarJazzCat]

I am realizing these books mention for jazz study have all this knowledge in them but I really never liked the sound of jazz.

Jazz books are going to default to discussing seventh chord harmony and will be heavy into breaking rules… (Did you get a chance to check out the Eastman youtube series?)

We bring our own styles to whatever we’re researching from. If rock lines aren’t catching the sound desired, triadic harmony/counterpoint…

[RockStarJazzCat]

@Tahoebrian5

I suspect the guys that hate on scales, know a lot of scales!

Ironically, the “haters” I’m aware of spouting the most vitriol would guide us to focus on coming up with nice melodies that work.

If I’ve suggested treating triads as mini chordscales, it’s not to the exclusion of anything else.

[Ernest_W_Retallack]

The way I see it, rock playing is mostly a horizontal phenomenon-that is, one that relates more directly to a certain a tonal center than to any chord that happens in a given moment. Using A minor pentatonic to solo over a blues in A certainly doesn’t sound wrong and yet if you examine the relation of each note of the scale to the 3 chords of a typical blues-oh what a horror. Of course, one can have more chord tone awareness but I think that too much of that leads to the whole thing becoming less “rock” and more “something else”. Not that this a bad thing, though.

[DrBB]

Troy’s discussed the hazard of practicing with inappropriate accents akin to what I’m bringing up here

Link, anyone?

Interesting disccussion, particularly about the 8-note “be bop” scale. I was taught that in the context of chordal playing, but when you base your single-note soloing off of arpeggios it kind of amounts to the same thing. A way of creating tension so you can resolve it.

To me that’s about 90% of what “musical” playing comes down to. One method I find easy to think about on the fly is what one of my jazz teachers called “leading tone/scale tone” figures, where (for example) you define your target note by starting a half-step below it, go to the next scale tone above it, then descend to the target. Many many variations on this but the nice thing is that initial half step creates a lot of surprise and tension–it can be quite a bit “out” of the chord–that sounds “wrong” but then turns out to be “right” because the ear understands it as a passing tone after the whole thing resolves. It’s used in classical as well as jazz, so it has the aural authority of that pedigree. Also a great way to suggest chromaticisms that can also be exploited in a more bop context.

I also find the triad-pair technique (which can lead to some nice chromatic leading tones) really easy to access on the fly, with a bit of practice, particularly in a context where you’re not dealing with much in the way of underlying chord patterns. Great way to get more interesting lines out of yer basic one-chord funk-jam kind of situation.

[RockStarJazzCat]

Link, anyone?

Sorry, not offhand. In general though, the subject generally gets brought up first when discussing chunked patterns that imply compound meters while playing in duple. That is, for example, sixes played as sixteenths.