Cracking the THEORY code

Do you guys have troubles making your runs sound musical? I have struggled with this for years until recently. I have obsessively studied theory, baroque, bach, jazz, etc. and I finally feel like I have a handle on this. So what is the solution? Here is my theory on one way to go about making musical runs or leads that make sense harmonically and in general sound like you know what you are doing. I’m sure there are many different ways to think about this but this is what my studying has lead to and it sounds like it works so i am pretty happy with it.

For an example I will use triplet runs. The key is to pay attention to what notes you are playing on the 1 and also ideally to accent the 1. So what notes would I choose to accent? The first thing you can do is use the triad tone of whatever chord is being played over, or implied if you are solo. So the 1, 3 and 5 (and the 7 also when wanted). Here is a quick example of a run that puts these notes on the 1’s

– 8 5 7 8 7 5 ------- 5 7 5----------
– --------------- 8 7 8 --------- 8 7 8 5 (or A)

More to come

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The second step is to use extensions and or tensions. The above example is in A minor. One of the most common tensions would be the 9, or B. In order to use the 9 well, it needs to resolve to either the 1 or the 3 (one of the neighboring chord tones). So here is what I would do. Start a run by defining the chord using down beats on the 1 or 3, then accent the 9, then go back to the 1 or 3 for a resolution, and possibly hit some other stuff in between. To me as soon as you accent the 9, no matter what you play it does not sound resolved until you accent the 1 or 3.

Both of the examples so far are in reference to a static chord. Playing between changing chords or keys even is a whole additional topic.

Okay so for an example using the 9 tension.

---- -- 5 8 5  7 8 7  5 - - - -  8 7  5 - - - - - - - - -  - - - - - - - - - - - -
5 7 8 - - - - - - - -  - - 8 7  8 - - - - - 8 7  5 7 8  5 8 7  5 - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  - - - -7 5 4  5 7 2

Edited for tab display

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I’ve had luck with the “Preformatted text” button, above, that looks like “</>”

Like so:

|--------5-7-8-|
|-5-6-8--------|
|--------------|
|--------------|
|--------------|
|--------------|
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Ok, well I did get the last bit to show up finally but the display doesn’t wrap text properly. Aww I struggle!

Does that second post above look okay now? I think Drew’s suggestion is easiest but make sure to apply the “preformatted text” thing only to the tab lines, not the whole post. May need some tweaking for consistent spacing but looks like if it ends up longer than one line it’ll be scrollable.

That’s prob best for simple plaintext solution. There may be some other online editor that could be embeddable via iframe (similar to how YouTube videos work automatically) but not sure. Soundslice, which we use for musical examples on troygrady.com, is awesome and has a free account level anyone can use to make a “slice”. Might be best for more complex stuff but I don’t think it’d be embeddable directly here on the forum.

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Thanks a bunch. Okay got it now, just apply to tab portion. And I will check out sound slice also

Thanks @Tahoebrian5. Question, why accent “1.” Why not the note preceding 1 as is common in practicing forward motion in lines? (Btw, we are speaking of beat one, and not chordal tone, scale degree, etc., correct?) I’m not the expert on this topic, just trying to understand the theory you’ve developed. Thanks in advance, Daniel

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im not familiar with the forward motion technique you mention although it sounds familiar. Maybe you can share a link or description?

The basic premise with accenting the 1 is to make sure you are subdividing the runs. Using straight 3’s or 4’s is the easiest thing to start with. Beyond that you could accent the off beats or use other rhythms, swings, jazz triplets, etc. or an even more advanced technique is to have a rhythym in your head and accent whichever beats you are feeling. As long as you put the chord tones on the accents and are following a rhythm of sorts, and ultimate,y if it sounds good, then you have succeeded. The teaser video of the new Andy Wood interview coming out, he does a description of how he is accenting different beats. That’s really the ultimate goal.

Mainly what I’m currently working on is converting the patterns that I practice into patterns that lend themselves to accenting chord tones. For example the malmsteen single string six pattern is a keeper. It accents two notes a third apart. The Paul Gilbert 4 note pattern accents a fourth apart and not as usable. Then be able to do runs that outline a given chord and change chords as needed. Ideally you should be able to hear the chord in your runs even if you are not accompanied.

Anyway, if there is more interest I will post some more advanced info.

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im not familiar with the forward motion technique you mention although it sounds familiar. Maybe you can share a link or description?

Definitely worth checking out Hal Galper’s work, http://www.halgalper.com/articles/understandingforwardmotion/. Targets jazz players but borrows from what classical musicians would attempt with say, Bach pieces to keep them musical as opposed to plodding.

In the styles of music that I pursue, bursts of speed generally head to some point of momentary target. Directly accenting on beat 1 may suggest a finality, prematurely, that can drain the life out of a line. On the other hand, if one is honest about placing chord tones on downbeats, the ear picks that up without the need to accent. Troy’s discussed the hazard of practicing with inappropriate accents akin to what I’m bringing up here, but it sounds like your point is more about being able to pick out accents at will, and the ability to emphasize chord tones at will.

Don’t know if it helps anyone else, but for what it’s worth, I’ve come to realize that being able to think of chords as three or four note scales may yield great benefits. The opposite of that, I suppose, would be the common guitarist’s tendency to treat chords strictly as arpeggios to sweep across strings with. I note that the pentatonics we are all familiar with are essentially four note scales with an additional note added. Simple change in perspective can yield surprisingly great results.

Best of luck with the line construction!

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Very interesting. I did read up on Hals theory and it is basically the same thing that I am doing. I think the main point that you are questioning is only because the description and examples I posted above are very basic and fundamental. That being said, from what I read of Hal’s theory, he does say to put the chord tones on the 1 beats, but he likes to start his runs on the upbeats (if I read enough to understand it). Also he calls the upbeats, the tension beats, so put the color tones on the weak or upbeats, and chord tones on the strong beats. Of course this is still a generalization and the idea is to be able to access the chord tones at will and align them with whatever rhythym you are creating. Much like you mentioned. This is a super cool find for me, to see that a respected musician came to much the same conclusion as I did completely independently, and I read a bit that Hal found that Bach did much of the same.

What I have found in my own playing is I have spent way too much time practing ing runs that do not lend themselves well to outlining a chord. For example, just playing a major scale all the way across the neck in triplets, the strong beat of the second triplet is the 4th scale degree, which is usually considered an avoid note over major chords. So right away you can’t just go up the scale in triplets starting on the 1 degree unless there is a chord change after the first triplet. It just doesn’t outline a chord well.

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Glad you found it interesting!

For what it’s worth, if one thinks in terms of a three note triadic chordscale R M3 P5, one could play triplets…

R (M9 m3) M3 (P4 #4) P5 (M6 M7) R

…the passing m3 lending a touch of blues, #4 borrowed from the most consonant, lydian mode, and still be putting chord tones on the beat. Kind of a ridiculously chromatic example for rock, but if one takes a triad and treats it as a scale to work with, then add the passing tones, chromaticism, appogiaturas, etc., one might make some new discoveries. :slight_smile:

I think this is one of the things the hexatonic (or triad-pair) approach sets out to solve. By paring down the number of notes, especially usingthe two-note cell approach a la Randy Vincent, the result seems to be more musical lines. In contrast to a pure scalar or arpeggio approach, this method (to my ears) seems to make more of the satisfying notes land in the right place.

It makes me wonder if the eight-note bebop scale doesn’t achieve similar results, but with a “denser” sound. In essence, both approaches are taking advantage of the math of the number of available note choices and how many notes one plays over a given chord.

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Great point. Thanks for sharing!

I think I “missed the chord tones for the bebop scales,” first introduced to jazz education in the eighties when David Baker books were particularly popular. I’m sure if one had the discipline to do everything in the series one would assimilate much of what we’re talking about, but I certainly didn’t.

For those that might not be familiar with the eight-note bebop scale that @alexvollmer speaks of, here they are expressed in scalar degrees ascending and descending:

Major Bebop Scale:  || 1 2 3 4 5 #5 6 7 | 1 7 6 b6 5 4 3 2 | 1 ... ||
Dominant Bebop Scale:  || 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7 | 1 7 b7 6 5 4 3 2 | 1 ... ||

When “shredding” bop, Parker, Gillespie, et al., found that by adding chromatic notes and passing notes where needed, they could keep chord tones on downbeats and “fly” in a scalar fashion. Thus they married the chord tone focused approaches before with more shreddable scalar approaches.

If the above looks like a wilderness of pain and suffering, consider that the two scales are built around the following chordal skeletons:

Major 6th Chord:  1 3 5 6
Dominant 7th Chord:  1 3 5 b7

…if you know the chordal structures, you can infer the in-between notes based on the key. (Relatively) easy-peazy. As Alex notes, and my example earlier demonstrates, bop does tend towards more dense lines with all the chromaticism. Triad pairs might be just the ticket for the shredmeisters. :slight_smile:

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The Triad Pair theory is quite interesting. Can you describe how you personally put it to use in line creation? It looks like there are many different ways to go about it. The first thing that came to mind for me was to use one basic triad for the chord you are on, then pick another one that has the upper structure tensions you are wanting to introduce. This could be a very cool line of study.

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The triadic/hexatonic approach can go in a lot of different directions. What you describe is definitely a starting point. For example combining a G major triad with an A minor triad gives you G-A-B-C-D-E, which you can play easily over any C major or A minor sound. From there you can start combining all sorts of triad combinations to get further and further “out”.

Jerry Bergonzi’s Hextonics is essentially a giant encyclopedia of such pairs. It’s not necessarily a helpful way to get started, but once you have some momentum with the idea, it can be a good source of inspiration to take it further. Personally, I’m getting the most out of Randy Vincent’s Line Games and The Cellular Approach. The former is a really gentle introduction into the topic that was paying dividends right away for me.

One final thought on that another way to view hextonics is taking the seven-note scales we’re familiar with and dropping a note. Traditionally jazz players are taught about certain “avoid” notes in these scales depending on the chord they’re played with (e.g. avoiding the 4th when playing over a major 7 sound). I think both roads end up in the same place, but with different mental models.

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Music theory, by its very nature, is very different from instrumental technique.

Ultimately, technique is about solving a practical problem. “How do I move the pick quickly and efficiently between strings?” As this site has shown, there are a handful of ways to do it. Many practitioners don’t even realize how they’re doing it.

But once we get to music theory, now we’re getting into “how does one think about music?” and that is a much more elusive, difficult object of study.

Sometimes we’re lucky, and artists tell us how they think about it. Schoenberg, for example, left us a lot of pedagogical texts that help illuminate how he thinks about harmony, counterpoint, form, aesthetics, etc.

But then you have someone like Bach – very little of his teaching materials still exist, most of it through second or third-hand sources. I’ve examined a good deal of the literature of Bach, and I have yet to find a really satisfactory answer about how he thought about music - what was going on through his head that enabled him to not only compose the music he did, but improvise three and four part fugues without any pre-meditation. The recent scholarship on Neapolitan conservatories and partimento by people like Robert Gjerdingen and Giorgio Sanguinetti is definitely promising – you get a better understanding of the world of the 18th century musician, where the line between musician, accompanist, improvisor, and composer were much more blurred than they are now. But it’s still a long way from ol’ Bach.

Likewise with improvisors like Charlie Parker or John Coltrane. Someone mentioned bebop scales. I’m familiar with them, and think they can be useful. But is there any evidence that Charlie Parker or Dizzy Gillespie actually thought of an eight note scale, with a chromatic tone between the root and b7? Hell, is there even a recorded example of either of them playing an eight note scale from root to root? I can think of lots of chromatic scalar lines in Bird’s playing, but the ones that come to mind are the ones in solos like “Donna Lee” - first chorus, the very first Bbm7 / Eb7 cadence - a typical example, but nothing really like a “bebop scale.”

And honestly, if you can convincingly explain what John Coltrane’s theoretical mindset was from about 1964 onwards, I’ll happily take lessons from you.

But even if you never get it, I think the process of trying to excavate a hero’s thought process is definitely worthwhile. Sometimes you get lucky – transcribe enough Charlie Christian, and you start to see that he was clearly thinking in terms of chord shapes to structure his lines.

But even if you never quite figure it out, it can be an invaluable starting point for your own personal music theory, which is ultimately what we’re all aiming for.

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Hi Everybody! I have a video here with clips of me playing melodic runs in the context of solos-
http://easyguitarmodes.com/
I often play short bursts that end on a target note so they don’t sound like scale practice! LOL
:slight_smile: Sarah

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Well, having spelled out the bebop scales as codified by David Baker, et al., I’ll respond. :slight_smile:

You’ve brought up the challenges of researching creative process, which is a fascinating topic in and of itself. And I think this thread is really about folks finding ways to apply what they know about theory to guitar lines. @Tahoebrian5’s revealing his working theory with regard to CTC related materials. “Cracking the Musicality Theory Code,” if you will.

Dizzy Gillespie was a teacher, and those guys were talking to each other, practicing, and challenging each other to find new ways, all of the time. I like to stay in that space. :slight_smile:

Indeed!

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VI think my main thought that Inspired me to start this discussion is that mechanics and theory don’t need to be completely seperate, and I’m realizing that keeping them seperate and practicing non-musical lines is a bit of a dead end, or it has been for me. It seems more productive to practice runs that outline specific chords, or tensions, etc. this way certain runs will be ingrained and although will likely sound predictable After a point, they can be used as a fall back and to support ideas as they come. So my main focus is to work on mechanics and lines simultaneously now.

Here’s an analogy, have you guys watched the Teemu interview? Regarding two octave sweeping practice, he breaks this up into just tge pick, just the left hand, then put them together. That’s exactly what I’m doing with my practice now. First align the notes, then decide on a picking strategy, then put them together. If it’s a good one, practice it a bunch and file it away in your mental vault to draw on when needed.

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Yes! And it’s good to practice over static or simple backing tracks (one or two chords) so you can hear the colors of the notes in a harmonic context. :slight_smile:

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