Crafting my crosspicking

Technique Critique
#1

Hello all!

The past few months I’ve been working on my crosspicking technique. Current status videos below.
I’ve almost always played with a “supporting” finger on the pickguard, until I began working harder (and became more informed) on crosspicking. I’m standing up in these first two clips, as I found the hand positioning hard to transfer from sitting position to standing, so I’d rather practice the standing version for now.

Here’s the forward roll:

And next, a not-so-great attempt at Wheel Hoss (inspired by Andy Wood) while trying to get everything in the shot :stuck_out_tongue:

I don’t feel completely comfortable yet, and still miss some notes here and there, but I’ve definitely made progress. I’m trying to do different picking patterns to train myself. I do feel like I am plateauing a bit at the moment however.

Any comments on what I could improve?

Lastly, I debated with myself whether to include this, but I think it’s fun to watch. No need to analyze it, I don’t think. This is the technique I used to use and still default to sometimes when I don’t think about it. I missed some notes (more than I realized until filming).

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#2

I think you have good technique… I’m impressed.
Based upon your videos, it looks a bit like a hybrid approach. Where you are sorta mixing in elements from 2wps into cross-picking, and it’s working great for you. Those rolliig 3s are tough.

However, if you feel that you are plateuauing… you might want to play around with a purely double escaping pick motion. Something like Carl Miner, where each pick-motion always starts and ends above the string, and follows an arch motion. And if you go that route, anchoring works fine… I’ve noticed people have a lot of success when they keep their wrist hovering above the strings a bit.

Personally, I stopped anchoring so I could get better range of motion, and better isolation between the picking and tracking, however… I also had to completely re-learn string tracking… .it’s been a large investment time-wise.

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#3

How are you string tracking now, and how is it different than what you were doing before when you did pickslanting?

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#4

Lotsa changes. Troy goes into this as well. I think the adaptation was easier for Troy, since he was already more skilled than me at string tracking.

I use elbow-only now. Before, I used elbow-shoulder, along with the wrist for adjacent back-and-forth movements. But also, I never properly knew how to do ascending outside picking… so cross-picking kinda ‘forced’ me to learn it.

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#5

Can you specify this a bit? As I understand, the movement is basically the same between crosspicking and 2WPS when you’re doing 1NPS lines, but differs when you do multiple notes on a single string - here crosspicking will always start and end above the string, whereas 2WPS will alternate with being above and below the string at the end of each stroke.
So you’re talking about the Wheel Hoss video that whenever I’m doing the “fills” you see me doing 2WPS (as opposed to the crosspicking rolls) - is that correctly understood?

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#6

Looks pretty good to me.
I wouldn’t throw away the anchored version, Troy mentioned that most crosspickers have an anchored and non anchored version, basically they use the anchored version for ranges up to 4 strings.
I’m not sure about the supported version, my impression is that it the motion is a little smoother for you there, I see no reason to drop it as anchored version, but that’s just guessing.

You seem to use a pretty stiff pick is that true?
If so you should try to keep the pick angle in small range, the amount of ‘flexing’ changes with the angle which might cause inconsistencies.

But all in all to me that looks fine.

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#7

When I was talking about a hybrid 2WPS, I was trying to explain that your mechanics for double escaping have elements of 2wps, which I’ve seen others do and again, I think it works great for you.

And your right that regardless of the technique… starting and ending above the strings is a prerequisite for doing 1nps alt picking. And were seeing lots of variations of doing that. So your right, that’s not what distinguishes your technique from carl miner’s technique. What I meant was Carl’s mechanics for starting and ending above the string are done in a way that creates a nice curved symmetrical stroke. It’s closer to the idea of ‘one stroke to rule them all’. And it may be a path you want to pursue if you feel like your are plateauing.

I use a symmetrical curved ‘one stroke for everything’ sorta similar to Carl, but a bit flatter… and its been great and it solved lots of issues… but as I mentioned before, I am still majorly lacking in string tracking skills at high speeds. I am getting there… but It’s an uphill battle for sure.

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#8

Thanks Hamsterman! This was quite informative, I have a bit to study and work on now :slight_smile:

#9

This looks great to me. I think the only operative question here is whether this feels smooth to you. Does it? If so, then it’s “correct” and I would keep doing it! Accuracy will improve over time by feeding the movement lots of variety, and being mindful of accuracy as you do so.

This is a great summary and pretty much how I would describe this. It doesn’t matter to me if there is forearm involvement on some notes and no forearm on other notes. I could be wrong, but I think that’s mainly what people mean when they say that things look like two-way pickslanting.

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#10

Thanks for your reply, much appreciated!

It is a bit weird since I have been used to playing with two anchoring points for so long; the wrist and ring finger. This obviously gave me a very robust setup. Not using the ring finger, however, is a little scary, but I think it’s a matter of habit and that it just takes some time to get used to.
Using the ring finger anchor feels more sturdy, but when I actually listen to it I think I’m playing more clean when not using the anchor - in spite of me only having worked on it a fraction of the time compared to how long I’ve been playing with the old setup (to be fair I didn’t use the old setup with any specific picking technique in mind, as I am now).

Do you think there’s a benefit to still practice crosspicking using an anchor finger, or would I be using my time better by focusing on the technique I have been practicing now? Put differently, would you recommend something like 50/50 between the two setups or just 100% one of them?

Yes, I was thinking along the same lines.

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#11

I generally go with what is working and see where it leads, until I hit a roadblock. I try to stop my rational brain from interfering while I do this, since lots of times it tries to interfere for totally irrational reasons like “that’s not how I play, I’m an anchored player”, or “I’ve played this way for so long, it would be a waste if I switched to some other way”.

Once you fee like you stop making some kind of headway, then I try to alter something. Sometimes this this happens monthly or weekly, sometimes it means every day is different. I try to let the hands decide. If I’m making headway and enjoying what it sounds like, I keep going. If I hit a wall, then I might try something else - different grip, different arm setup, different muting, different phrases, whatever. If by total chance I pick up the guitar on a given day and start playing with a setup I don’t normally use, but it’s working, I keep doing it.

The idea is to avoid both extremes: not to hammer against roadblocks with no improvement, but also to not have so much variety that you don’t spend enough time on any particular thing to learn it. This is how I try to address both aims.

So in this case if the one approach is working, do that until it doesn’t. If a few days go by and you feel like it’s not improving, or you’re bored, or whatever - try the other one. Do that until it’s no longer working. Rinse, repeat.

That’s my general formula.

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#12

Thanks a bunch, Troy. I will keep this in mind. I do notice that playing different lines will sometimes alter the way I anchor/do my setup, and by the end of an hour or two of practice I’m in a completely different place than where I started, while playing really smooth. The hard thing is recreating this after putting down the guitar and picking it up again. I guess it comes with time, as most things! :slight_smile:

#13

That is the central challenge of learning. I call it “replication”. Anyone can do something right accidentally. Like standing up once on a surf board. But recognizing what you did that made it work, memorizing the feel of that thing, and coming back on day two and doing it again deliberately - that’s where the real learning happens. It’s a struggle!

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#14

My impression is that the anchored version is cleaner pickingwise, the version without is cleaner rhytmwise.
It seems to me the escape motion is bigger in the anchored version, probably the ringfinger supports that small lift-motion.
I really do not prefer one version (sorry no help there), just wanted to point that out. It’s a neat technique, so in case you drop the anchor entirely, I’d keep in mind that you can that - one more option in your toolkit.

#15

Yes I was also experimenting with this today while working my crosspicking.

Anchored vs non anchored.
I find that when I Anchor it is very lightly with my pinky. Overall in this position my hand feels very loose, the rest of my fingers are splayed out. My crosspicking has more finger involvement in it during the downstroke (the Martin Miller MP Extension). My pick grip is the “angle pad” and it is loosely held (this is my standard pick grip)

Non anchored (just Wrist on Bridge)
My fingers are now loosely curled. My pick Grip is now much tighter (or it feels more solid- the fingers have stopped moving), and the pick grip has drifted up to More of the side of the index finger (perhaps because the fingers are now more curled, and tighter into the hand).

In terms of feel they both feel the same as ease of comfort for the 1NPS stuff. I find 4 string arpeggios very easy- easier than the basic forward roll (the one that switches pick Stroke every time). The String Skipping Inside Picking is more challenging than the rest of the string changes (getting the accuracy).

To combat this I’m doing 3 and 4 string Forward Rolls (1232 or 123432) starting on an Upstroke and Downstroke. I’m also doing the Double Up Variation that is shown in the Andy wood interview (1232 3212 3213 1232). I also have a String Skipping pattern for 4 String (1324 3423).
The String Skipping Pattern starting on an Upstroke is all Inside Picking- very challenging.
Another one that I’ve practice has been The basic Forward roll followed by the outer notes (12313).
This flips the pickstroke every repitition and works the string skipping aspect.

#16

So, I just wanted to make a small update. I have been working on my cross picking technique a great deal since starting this thread, and I’m seeing some improvements.

I’ve started trying to imitate (one of) @Troy’s techniques of only using wrist movements. This meant trying to ditch any forearm rotation I was doing, in order to have less moving parts. Actually looking down at my hand while playing and making sure I wasn’t seeing rotation was something that helped, and it made me aware of what it felt like to play, whenever I wasn’t doing forearm rotation. (Edit: Of course, I verified my observations by looking at slow-motion as well.)
Something that changed for me recently and made a big improvement, was noticing just how much contact my wrist can have with the bridge and still be supinated. Troy has mentioned this multiple times, but it still surprised me when I was fooling around with different setups.

Anyway, here are some update videos - first, forward roll:

This is triplets at 170 bpm. In the beginning of the clip I’m arpeggiating (edit: I guess staccato would be the word), because while working on it, I’ve found it difficult to discern exactly when I was missing notes or hitting the same string twice, because holding a chord and letting the notes ring out often hid the fact that I was making mistakes. When I saw it in slow-motion it was easy to tell when I was inaccurate, but I wasn’t able to try to fix that while actually playing. So arpeggiating it helped me improve my accuracy, because it enabled me to make corrections while playing.

Next, Wheel Hoss - the version Andy Wood played in his acoustic interview. He plays it around 160 bpm which is mind-boggling to me still (he even speeds up a bit towards the end). I don’t know what tempo I play in here, but I can usually do 140-145 bpm. I have been stagnating at this tempo for a while now, however.

In general I have to improve on my accuracy a lot. I’m not feeling strain however, and that’s what’s most important at the moment.

And I also just want to say thanks for all the feedback you all gave me on my initial post, it’s much appreciated!

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#17

I know what you mean… here’s a little trick that you might experiment with : roll a piece of paper the under your strings right after the bridge. It will dampen your strings whilst playing, but you’ll be able to hear the sound of them anyway, a crisp and detuned kind of sound. You can do that with acoustic guitar or electric, even unplugged (the paper roll amplifies the sound of the string). You have to find a sweet spot for a tone which is OK to work with and you like. It can give you a banjo-like tone or more oud like. It changes the feel for sure (strings are easier to work with, but at the same time you want to hit them harder then necessary), so you don’t want to do it for long session, but it can be helpful… and fun!

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#19

Never heard of that idea. Thank you, I’ll try it out! :slight_smile:

Edit: Wauv, this is excellent @blueberrypie! Now I can play any pattern without having to make it staccato, and still check it on the fly.

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#20

Nice work! My main question for you is what it looks like when you slow this down and do something simple, like just the plain forward roll, with a movement big enough so that every pickstroke covers the complete three-string spread. i.e. By making this larger it’ll be easier to see what movement shape you’re using, and any awkwardness will make itself apparent. Paradoxically, making the larger movement is where the speed comes from on these types of patterns, because again, if the smoothness and flatness of it are not happening, you won’t be able to do it.

#21

Thanks for the feedback, Troy! I haven’t gotten much practice in since your reply because of exams, but I did do a recording trying to exaggerate my movements. I don’t know if I over-exaggerated it though.

It looks like this (I slow down in the last half of it):

Accuracy is stilll not quite there. And it could definitely be a flatter curve.

In the first half it looks like I’m actually doing some forearm rotation on the ascending upstroke. Not sure if this is slowing things down in the big picture.

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