Critique my cross picking?

Playing Technique
#21

Woof I gotta say guys I’m still pretty lost here. Basically I think I might get what’s ‘wrong’ but unfortunately am not too clear on what’s right. I did check out Troy’s recent thread here but not quite sure I am understanding.

Regardless of how sloppy this is, am I getting in the ballpark of the correct movement (exaggerated a bit here) or am I actually further off than the other recent close up I posted in this thread?

Edit: more specifically, is THIS now ‘crosspicking’ (even if it’s not great) and no longer ‘string hopping’?

Clip is 18 seconds.

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#22

One thing I’m not sure has been discussed here yet, but when you look at people like Troy, David Grier, Carl Miner, Molly Tuttle, Albert Lee doing fast crosspicking, all of them have some kind of “tactile reference” for their picking hand, rather than letting it float free in space. The most similar to you is probably Carl Miner, but he has his pinky touching the face of the guitar, which I think makes a big difference for hitting the strings accurately with his technique. Grier has his wrist wresting on the bridge. Molly Tuttle mixes different techniques, but it seems when she goes into “extreme crosspicking mode”, she has part of the “thumb side” of the heel of her hand resting on the bridge. Albert Lee rests part of the “pinky side” of the heel of his hand on the guitar face or the bridge. Troy appears to have “gliding” fingers on the guitar face, along with maybe contact from the “pinky” edge of the hand on the bridge or the strings, or maybe just part of the “heel” of the hand on the bridge in sort of an Andy Wood style (apologies, @Troy , if I’m off the mark).

Do we have any examples of people who do feats of extraordinary crosspicking without some sort of tactile reference method similar to what I described above? The closest I’m thinking of is Carl Miner, but he has that pinky contact with the guitar face when he crosspicks.

Edit: I forgot to mention Steve Morse, but his crosspicking also has appears to have a tactile reference, with the pinky edge of the hand resting on the bridge or the strings.

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#23

Thanks @Frylock - I’ll definitely play around with that. But specifically I’m curious, is THIS now ‘crosspicking’ and no longer ‘string hopping’ ? Or close to the former?

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#24

To me, the latest video looks more like crosspicking, but I’ll defer to @Troy.

As I think Troy has mentioned, what makes elite crosspickers effective is that the motion that lifts the pick out of the plane in the second “phase” of the pickstroke isn’t merely the reverse direction version of the same motion that buries the pick down into the plane of the strings in the first phase of the pickstroke (important to note here that we are talking about phases that break down a single stroke, i.e. just a downstroke, or just an upstroke). That is, rather than, say, flexing the wrist in phase one and extending the wrist in phase two, you have different motion mechanics that are making each phase work: e.g. (in the downstroke case): forearm rotation with the wrist in “flexed” position buries the pick in the plane in phase one, then the wrist extends to lift the pick out of the plane for phase two. Then the upstroke would be that combination of motions in reverse: wrist flexes for phase one of the upstroke, then forearm rotates up out of the plane for phase two.

Note that the movements don’t have to be completely isolated, only that each contributing mechanic has just one direction for downstrokes, and one direction for upstrokes. E.g. wrist extends on downstrokes, wrist flexes on upstrokes.

Note also that the movements don’t have to be “forearm rotation and wrist flex/ext”, it could be a combination of wrist deviation and wrist flex/ext, etc. In theory, maybe someone could do both phase one and phase two with rotation of the forearm, but I don’t think I’ve seen that be used effectively. To my eye, what you are doing looks pretty similar to Carl Miner: mostly forearm rotation, but with a subtle wrist flex/ext component. From this angle, I’m not sure whether you’re trying to rely too much on just the rotation of the forearm or not, but you seem to have moved away from stringhopping at least.

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#25

Yes. A somewhat exaggerated “pure forearm” version of crosspicking, but yes. Everything @Frylock says I agree with here.

If instead of floating the arm, you simply place it on the strings, you will still be able to do a certain amount of what you are currently doing. You will need to introduce wrist movement to complete the downstroke. That is what I am doing in the other thread you reference.

Actually do you recall the live broadcast where we talk about forearm rotation blends, and I talk about how wrist and forearm work together? There’s a moment where I demonstrate how it can work with a strongly flexed Gypsy-style wrist, and also how it can work if you straighten that out. That straight version is very close to what I’m doing in the other thread. A combination of forearm and wrist. If you can do that movement, the forearm plus the wrist deviation movement, then you are very close to the Jimmy Herring-style movement I am using in the other thread.

There are also other crosspicking methods which produce a similar result but have no, or almost no, forearm turning. When most people attempt this, they stringhop. This is probably why people find this topic confusing. Any time you show someone who is visibly turning their arm, people go “aha!” that’s different. When you look at someone like Molly or Pat Martino who don’t appear to turn the arm very much, then people go “stringhopping”, and don’t understand why Molly and Pat can do that movement quickly. This is the movement we are describing in the Albert Lee videos, the pure wrist version of this “fully escaped” pickstroke movement.

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#26

I mentioned this as well to the mandolin guy, and I completely agree about the need for ‘contact’ with crosspicking. I like Troy’s ‘gliding’ technique… it gives you the most range of movement… but I can’t deny that Carl Miner’s technique is super precise and reliable.

#27

Quick question - which Albert Lee video has the animations? Maybe I’m being dense, but I went through them and couldn’t find the exact one/spot - although I do think I’m understanding these distinctions better!

Thanks in advance

#28

Hey SO here’s a new video, a little longer at 3:42, where I’m requesting some advice/assessment,

contents are, in order:

  • I demo to check if I’m more in the ballpark with the movement

  • an exercise I made up to ‘test’ if the pick is traveling the correct path (might be useful…)

  • demonstrating my personal ‘motion mechanics’ for faster playing - my thought is that if any of you folks can see what my wrist/arm looks like when I’m doing my max-tempo stuff, then so how I’m interpreting the cross picking movement, if there are more pieces that I’m missing

I have to admit I’m not always clear on what of my own motions are coming from wrist vs elbow/forearm, and maybe someone else can help me make the distinctions in my different movements.

thank you so much in advance!

(edit: helpful to actually link the video in)

edit: thank you troy for linking to https://troygrady.com/interviews/albert-lee/analysis-chapter-4-the-compound-curve/ in the other thread to answer my Q about which Albert Lee vid to watch - I will check it out and won’t be surprised if it answers some of the questions in my vid here.

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#29

Great playing as usual! Got some audio sync weirdness happening here.

Your usual ‘fast’ technique is mostly wrist deviation actually, with a slight flex. There is a little arm but not that much. Check your hand in the wide shot, it’s mostly moving side to side. This is how most people who do “forearm rotation” actually do it - with a blend of things.

The forearm-involved version of crosspicking is just another way of doing it. Not better or worse, just different. It’s not aggressively “turny” as you’re doing it here. But that’s ok, we haven’t done any kind of tutorial on that movement yet so you might try the “lightly supinated arm, wrist-only” version from the new tutorial. We now have some good closeup shots of what that looks like when done correctly, and some semblance of stepwise instructions for getting started. This is essentially a simplified version of the “Andy Wood” style of crosspicking, for reference.

See that thread for more details on how this works!

#30

Ok - update after spending a few days sporadically re-reading threads, re-watching the Albert Lee vid as well as other videos, and here’s where I feel I’m at:

  1. I think I am able to mimic Troy’s movements and set up in the two minute cross picking tutorial and as he has tried to describe it in text.
  2. With the way that feels I really can’t imagine performing that movement on a single string quickly or at any tempo I’d consider ‘fast,’ nor can I really think of a process that could allow me to gradually increase my speed and comfort on that tempo to get from the somewhat glacial tempo I’m at now into that post-hopping zone.
  3. I also think I understand the principle of the muscle chains required in the down and upstroke. Interestingly I did a slow mo vid of my ‘normal’ or ‘old’ picking technique for crosspicking figures (like the first post in this thread, recorded a year ago) and I believe I’m actually extending out from my index finger base joint on each stroke, so therein lies the hop/peck - I was changing strings by extending my fingers out on every string change (after 20 years I have a way to verbalize what’s going wrong :joy: ) For reference, I can comfortably play a lot of 1WPS figures as 16ths at 150-180 or so, pretty sure there’s no finger movement going on there, and the one-note-per-string hopping stuff might top out around 100.
  4. Re-watching the Martin Miller stuff and the Albert Lee stuff my intuition is telling me that there is some combination of movements I can make that can satisfy the ‘cross don’t hop’ muscle chain principles but I’m not sure that Troy’s set up and set of movements is going to be it. There may be some combination of forearm and finger stuff or something that winds up working better for me, but I’m really just guessing at this point. I just say this because I know how it feels to ‘floor it’ as Andy Wood said, and I can’t imagine it feeling right to floor it with the Troy movement sequence. But I recognize I could be coming to this conclusion just as a result of my own incorrect comprehension of anything or everything that’s going on.
  5. So there seem to be two possible challenges. One is figuring out how to speed up Troy’s movements, and the other is to tool around and see what adjustments I can make in my own ‘fast’ motion mechanics to get a curve going on each stroke. In both cases, I’m not sure of what step by step processes I would need to through to make progress towards those aims.
    6. Last point I promise, and I think this will be relevant to everybody struggling with this - I’m really not sure how progress is supposed to FEEL. As in, ok even if I get it ‘right’ I’m not sure what struggles I might encounter (say, tension, accuracy, not correctly clearing the string, etc) are normal and can be worked out, and what struggles are indications that I have something incorrect in the movement, if that makes sense.

Thanks in advance everyone. I think I’ll tag @hamsterman again as he seemed to have worked out a lot of solutions with this stuff as well.

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#31

Considering that you are still stringhopping a bit (as suggested by Troy), that sounds great! You will be an absolute beast when you perfect the crosspicking mechanic! Good job! I look forward to seeing your progress with this, so please keep posting! I’m in awe of anyone who crosspicks, my skill level is shockingly poor! Haha!

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#32

These aren’t really movements you have to “speed up” if you already have good hand speed as you do. So it’s possible there’s still something not quite right in the movement. If you’ve got footage of this let’s take a look.

Again, for someone in your situation, as a highly coordinated player, if we’re talking about a single specific pattern like the forward roll, there’s not really progress per se. Did you ever learn the moonwalk as a kid? The forward roll pattern is a lot like that. Like a physical coordination trick that some kids could do, others couldn’t, and some couldn’t and then - light bulb - could after some trial and error or instruction. It’s similar to that.

Put up a clip and we’ll take a look!

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#33

Here’s another thought. Can you do a wrist-anchored strum (as per the instructions in the two-minute video) across three strings, with no arm turning or finger involvement? What does that look like? Does it feel faster and easier than what you’ve been practicing with the anchored crosspicking technique?

Because honestly, deviation crosspicking feels a lot like that, just on individual strings. In fact, an attempt at crosspicking which ends up too flat, and just becomes a somewhat sloppy strum across three strings, would be technically closer to correct than a super accurate stringhopping movement. If you’re looking for a guide as to what this feels like and why I don’t think you should necessarily have to “speed up” this movement, that’s my best guideline.

If you can film that, let’s take a look at that because that could be another gateway into this type of movement.

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#34

You’re the man Troy, love that we’re getting under the hood of all this and you’re willing to take the time. I will definitely tool around with what you say and get up another clip of the movement for you and others to evaluate.

#35

While we’re brainstorming here I have another idea. Try this on a tabletop like the tutorial. I was expecting that to be weird to film and I was surprised how much it wasn’t. It’s strangely comfortable. Edit: I’m sitting on one of these:

…and I have the guitar on one of these:

Sorry, edit again! In front of a mirror. This will give you a one-to-one visual reference with the tutorial video for what the pickstroke itself should look like when performed on a single string.

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#36

@Troy Ok so I tried to cover a few relevant things in here, including your request a couple posts back. I’m super grateful for you and anybody who is checking this out and providing feedback, so know that my vocal tone in the video is more a combo of frustration at not getting this movement and also the fact that I’m home sick today.

Thanks in advance!

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#37

Thanks for the details Jake! And sorry for your frustration on this. We’re just beginning to put the pieces together on these techniques as far as how to actually do them, and I second guess myself many times on this subject.

Let’s try a different tack here. The lap-style perspective we used in that tutorial video was just an experiment but it turns out to not only make certain things really easy to see, but it’s oddly comfortable to actually execute, just due to the relaxed way the arm lays on the body.

So here are a few more shots of that to help get your mind around this:

The front perspective shows you what the shape of the movement looks like very clearly. The side view is more similar to what you’d see as the player sitting there with the guitar on your lap. I’m doing a casual strumming movement, then I’m moving that to a single string while attempting to keep its overall contour the same. Some thoughts:

  • Don’t worry about exaggerating anything when you try this. You mentioned several times in your clip about doing so - try to avoid that. It just introduces unnecessary movements and sometimes incorrect ones. Just move the wrist side to side super loosely and see what it looks like.

  • Notice the strums actually do escape at each end of the movement. Barely, but they do. I’m not really thinking about that, although at some level of course I must be “doing” that since it’s happening. But try not consciously turn anything or lift anything. If you can do the strum, and you film it with your phone, and the pick is actually escaping at both ends, you’re on your way.

  • When translating that to a single string, try not to make any obvious turning or lifting movements. And try not to do this too slow - even now, when I slow down, I tend to make unnecessary movements and the technique veers back into stringhopping. We see this in the Andy Wood interview as well. His “demonstration” versions of things can look quite different from his “playing speed” versions of things.

  • With that in mind, you’re not looking for speed here. Don’t worry if it doesn’t feel “fast” like you’re used to with your pickslanting or economy techniques. The A-number-one goal here is to get the feel of what “effortless” feels like, at a moderate speed. Until you do that, you’ll never really know what you’re shooting for. Trust me, once you experience that, it will be a hundred times easier to try and recreate that with different arm setups, grips, and so on.

The other thing I like about this lap technique is that you can sit in front of a mirror and essentially get both views at once - camera view, in the mirror, and player perspective, by looking down at your arm. Again, it’s oddly comfortable and should feel flat and easy.

Give that a shot and see what you come up with!

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#38

Will do! I will experiment and get back to you. Thanks again!

“Never gonna give you up” - me, to trying crosspicking

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#39

@Troy - am I just imagining it or is your pick rather perpendicular to the strings in this video? Like greater than 45 degrees edge picking? I appreciate your thoughts as usual!

#40

It’s about 45 degrees on the string I am playing, give or take, which you should be able to see in the video. It might be a touch more because the guitar is on my lap, but it’s not perpendicular. You really need to look at the edge at moment the pick hits the string, not at the start or end of the pickstroke. At the extremes of the picksroke, the edge picking angle will of course be pretty different, because this is a wrist movement. But I’m not hitting the strings at those points.