Critique my cross picking?

Playing Technique
#41

Hey Jake. Sorry I dissapeared from the forum. I had to take care of some things.

Your form is great. Your DWPS and UWPS is super clean. By the way… I started my cross-picking by just switching from DWPS to UWPS as quickly as I could… and slowly, it became a single fluid motion. Something to think about.

As far as my current cross-picking form… it’s close to Troy’s, but with finger-movement to help escape the downward stroke. Without the finger movement… I cannot clear the strings. My pick stroke almost feels like a combo of a frisbee throw and a turning the keys of a car. The curve is very subtle… I barely escape… only by about a millimeter. I had an issue earlier with ascending outside-picking swiping 2 months ago… and I had to sorta ‘re-calibrate it’. It feels better now.

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#42

Thanks a lot @hamsterman, I appreciate it. I have to admit I paused on this project as I felt like I really wasn’t ‘getting’ it or making any headway, but I do have on my to-do list to revisit Troy’s last suggestions and all the threads on the subjects. I’m sure it’s possible but with guitar playing I’ve usually felt things ‘click’ in a short period of time and then I see what needs to happen for me to move forward…here it just wasn’t clicking, which isn’t a fun feeling. But I’m not giving up hope, just been focussing on other things.

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#43

I know what you are saying… There’s definitely a reason why very few use a double-escape stroke at high speeds… We all try it, but it always breaks down at a certain speed… and practicing doesn’t help. As Troy says… .its so easy to do it wrong.

It’s now been almost 2 years since I started on this. (Yikes, how depressing). But I did a lot of dead-end practicing which really slowed me down… so I think it can be learned much quicker… but it requires a really STRICT learning process.

The problem is we always try practicing the 1NPS picking before mastering the X-picking mechanics. I kept falling into this trap… I kept doing 1NPS stuff even though I hadn’t properly learned all 4 string transfers, and my pick escape wasn’t quite high enough. And every time I did this… I learned bad form… which later had to be ‘unlearned’.

Anyhoo… I’m glad I stuck with it… but man… I went through some awful months of treading water. I think I’m confidant enough to do a bit of a tutorial soon. I just wanna make sure I am not teaching bad things.

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#44

would totally be very interested in a vid! Even if not organized - just you talking about your experiences and demonstrating what worked and didn’t.

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#45

I think the opposite actually. 1NPS stuffs like 3-string rolls make double escape compulsory, whereas with single or 2-strings you can rely on single escape (unless you make sure that you do the swing movement, but nothing makes it necessary). 3-string rolls are the perfect crosspicking exercise because with a few permutations you have all string changes with double-escape involved.

The key is to make rolls feel like if you’re playing single string (that seems a bit odd saying that, but that’s really how it should feel IMO). Thus you can seamlessly blend multiple strings changes together with short single string patterns.

That is what always struck me with bluegrass players : they seem to make no distinction playing single string vs multiple strings, and this is crucial to keep a steady tempo for this genre of music. Not saying crosspicking only applies for Bluegrass, but that’s how it should feel IMO.

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#46

What I was refering to are guitarists who have played for years using linear pick-slanting strokes, and now suddenly want to encorporate X-picking to their skill-set.

Basically… they have to go back and re-learn their pick stroke so that it is truly double-escape… and after that, they typically have to relearn tracking as well. But this is often a serious time-intensive process for many guitarists here… (myself included) and often out of impatience, we try to skip right into the 1NPS stuff… before getting the mechanic right. So we ‘default’ to our old mechanics.

As for using the same stroke for everything… that is actually what I currently do. My tremolo is almost identical to my 1NPS picking. But again… this wasn’t an easy process… I had to completely relearn my picking mechanic.

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#47

I don’t fully understand why you say that. Can you elaborate ? What do you find so different with crosspicking that would require re-learn tracking ? I don’t see any specific issue with tracking actually wrt crosspicking. Well … maybe for very fast 5 or 6-strings arpeggios, but even that I don’t see why crosspicking would involve a specific issue for tracking. (YMMV, speaking for myself)

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#48

It’s not an issue for every pick-slanter here… but a majority. I remember Troy talking about this as well… but he said he adjusted fairly quickly… but for me… it was a slow adjustment… much worse than I thought… it took over a year.

Tracking methods are diverse… but especially for pick-slanters… because they often have a linear 1 mechanic pick-stroke which frees up every other mechanics for tracking. Many develop tracking that integrates wrist deviation with elbow movement. Some use wrist-tracking exclusively (ie Yngie), which is why he can pick while playing behind his head. Some guitarists use their fingers for ‘reaching’ or for adjusting to wrist-tracking. Some use a combo of elbow, wrist, and thumb movement for tracking. The list goes on. All of these methods work fine for pick-slanting, because those tracking movements rarely interfere with their pick-stroke, again, because the pick-slanting stroke is typically linear, and only involves 1 (or maybe 2) mechanics.

However, X-picking can throw a monkey wrench into some of these tracking methods. The X-picking form typically requires multiple mechanics… sometimes working together, sometimes blending into one another. And the problem arises when the needed mechanics are already being used be the pick-slanter’s tracking mechanic.

On the other hand… someone who learned X-picking early-on… wouldnt run into this… if they started using tracking mechanics that interfered with their pick-stroke… they’d immediately feel it not working… and try something else.

My X-picking transformation was an extreme example of this. Mostly because my X-picking form uses every mechanic under the sun… and my previous tracking technique was occupying many of these mechanics. It would take a while to explain all the problems I had to overcome. But, on a positive note… I did overcome them… and I super happy with my current form. I’m a huge proponent of X-picking now.

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#49

@hamsterman : thanks for your explanation. That’s interesting.

I’m not fully aware of such issue tbh, but that’s just me… Let’s take an picking pattern example, that could fit for an arpeggio back on fourth on 3 strings. Sweeping vs. Crosspicking.

**Economy/sweeping string change
E-------------------------
B--------d-u-d------------
G------d-------u----------
D--d-u----------u---------
A-------------------------
E-------------------------

**Crosspicking (alternate)
E-------------------------
B--------u-d-u------------
G------d-------d----------
D--d-u----------u---------
A-------------------------
E-------------------------

Basically I can’t see how tracking the sweeping pattern could interfere with tracking the crosspicking pattern (to put it shortly). To me it’s just the same tracking-wise. I mean the picking movement itself is different of course, but not to the point that it would involve a different tracking method, or incompatibility between both techniques.

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#50

This has nothing to do with pick-slanters having weak tracking skills using their existing tracking methods. In fact, just the opposite… many pick-slanters here are very precise and versatile with their current tracking skills… and can do the above movement with no problem… we often spend a lot of time economy picking/sweeping.

The issue arises when a pick-slanter switches from their existing pick-stroke, to a pick-stroke that includes a mechanic that they had previously relied upon as part of their tracking mechanic.

If this occurs, that guitarist will now have to relearn their tracking mechanic, but not because its not precise/versatile enough, but because that old tracking method relied heavily on sed mechanic. My previous post goes into the scenarios where this happens.

Believe me, this is a real issue for most of us switching over to X-picking… and it can vary from a minor inconvenience that we can overcome in a few days… to a very daunting re-learning process that takes months. I’ve seen it mentioned multiple times here.

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#51

hmm… that seems very strange to me. I wonder if by tracking we talk about the very same thing. To me ‘tracking’ would be to get the pick in place for striking the string with regards to the horizontal plane of the strings. That is, very simply, to get the pick in position to strike the desired string. No more, no less.

Now I can see an issue Pickslanting vs Crosspicking which is the amount of ‘dig’, i.e. the depth of the pickstroke. Pickslanting have a natural inclination of burying one side of the pickstroke, that’s the very nature of a linear pick trajectory with pickslant. With crosspicking I do believe a more shallow pickstroke is better, with the pick trajectory a lot more above the plane of the string. This can involve some ‘re-learning’, especially if you are doing DWPS with a heavy slant combined with a roomy supinated arm set-up (like for example Gypsy jazz style).

btw …I know that a supinated set-up for me is not quite right for crosspicking, because I tend to dig too much. That’s the reason why I have some difficulties with the roll tutorial that @Troy published. In fact I’m not really able to crosspick confortably with a supinated set-up, my arm kind of refusing it. And lately I’ve been repositioning to a more pronated arm set-up which I like more (typically for picking the lower string, regardless of the technique used).

YMMV of course on the supinated vs pronated approach … but what I found out is that you might have to take extra care about the depth of your pickstroke for crosspicking, and that can be influenced by a number of things. And it’s very possible that you might experience some level of inconsistency if you are primarily a straightforward pickslanter (especially DWPS imo)

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#52

Yes, its strange, but very real for us. Again… Troy discusses it, but doesn’t go into it in detail… but I am going to make a crappy little tutorial video of my own… that will touch on this, among lots of other things.

Yes, I agree with you on the pick-stroke, that many slanters stroke fairly deep.

I am trying to be right in the middle of supinated / pronated… trying to get that sweet spot where I feel like both stroke-directions feel comfortable. I am still working on the 3-note-rolls too… it’s not quite up to speed with my other stuff… but its getting better. Over the last month, I’ve used a bit more finger motion… and its helped in a lot of areas. Troy’s videos have helped a lot… especially M. Miller, A. Wood, etc. I don’t think I would have every even tried X-picking without seeing his videos.

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#53

I look forward to the video on your Xpicking- any idea when you will make it and what it will cover?

#54

I think it’s normal. The string skip in the 3-string roll inexorably slows you down. Not saying you can’t play it ‘fast’, but the simpler stuffs (like 3-strings up and down w/o string skip) will be just faster.

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#55

I think I am going to start making it today. I am receving my phone/mount thingy this afternoon I think: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B010H8D6GY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I am pretty clueless when it comes to making videos… so it might take me a bit to get it right. The tutorial will be primitive for sure… but it’ll just be something simple, so I can demonstrate a few little tricks/methods for making it work, and some problems/challenges I faced.

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#56

hey hamsterman I’m super interested in a demo, so I’d be willing to help you with the video making. I do a lot of online lessons (mostly not-public, for the students that sign up for a program I do) so I was even considering asking you about doing a little interview vid, maybe we could do it over skype and save it and share it here or something. I may (or may not) be helpful in how to structure your findings and present them in a way that’s practical/usable.

That’s a pretty cool little holder!

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#57

Hey Jake. Sure, let me first try to get some good video first. I just played around with that holder right now, and man does it shake… anything above 170 bpm, it starts going crazy. Its probably because I start to mix in my elbow at that speed. I did some non-slanting 3NPS warmups with it here, and you can see it looks like the earth is going to crack open.

Also, it feels really akward… I did a practice run without the mount and felt relaxed, and with the mount… I tense up. But I really like that position though… because it shows important aspects of my mechanics, including the fingers and the forearm rotation. Maybe I can just record slower stuff… especially the 1NPS stuff… to keep it from shaking.

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