Crosspicking Technique Update

Technique Critique
#21

Normally when someone swipes every string change it sounds a little dirtier than you’re getting. Even Batio who uses it systematically, you can still hear it, and his left hand muting is pretty tight. In your case, I can’t really hear it, to be honest, nor can I see it, but that could be a video issue. Either way I would guess that if it’s happening, it might not be happening all the time.

Without overthinking this, the most straightforward approach here is to assume the arm position that we know works for for mixed escape, which is very similar to what you’re already using anyway. Here’s a great live shot of Al Di Meola where you can see the anchor points super clearly:

The spot where the pinky heel meets the wrist, that touches the bridge. That’s it. Once you have that, all motions are done from this position, no rolling the arm around. The shot at :53 is a great example of exactly what that looks like:

Once you have this, you can try some phrases that mix notes per string and see how smooth you can get them. You don’t have to jump right into bluegrass roll patterns. You can try patterns that have mixtures of 3nps, 1nps, and 2nps. Lines like what Al is playing in these clips work well. I also like 212 patterns like Andy is playing here, because they can feel more obvious when you hit wrong strings / notes:

Finally, if you are concerned about interference from existing learned motions and you want to try something new, I have only very positive things to say about EVH style motion with the middle- and three-finger grips. Have you taken the table test in our latest update? Since you are already good at wrist motion I would think you’d have no problem with the EVH style.

If you really want to break out of the rut, see if you can tool around with the EVH style and find a way for it to feel comfortable. It may require experimentation. But if you want to get out of the comfort zone / baggage, that’s a great way to do it.

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#22

After many months, I have to say that Troy’s “Gun it and Go” approach, is finally starting to make sense. Play as fast as you can and slowly clean it up. It’s a slow process but it’s starting to work for me. Pay less attention to technique and more to what comes naturally. Of course there are certain flaws that you must work on overcoming but in the end, we all kinda do what we do and make it work. I think Troy and Co. are trying to say this from the start…there are just so many ways to achieve the same goal. Find a comfortable motion and refine it. At least that’s what I got from this and it’s working for me. :+1:

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#23

Yeah that’s kinda what I’ve been working on since I’ve been a long time Thumb Side UWPSer. Doing everything with Pinky Side DWPS anchoring there’s still a lot of foreign stuff cause I had only learned few things in that position. Especially on the higher strings. Anyways here’s another clip of super duper sloppy playing using the motion that I’ve been suing lately. I find playing at moderate tempos with occasional bursts of speed more beneficial to me than just going for it.

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#24

Hi Robert! Thanks for doing this. My concern with this attempt is that this doesn’t look like a motion you can do smoothly and quickly. I know you mentioned you prefer stopping and starting, but even the faster moments seem less smooth and slower than your wrist technique.

The intent of the “go fast” test is to start with a motion that you can do quickly and easily, with comfort, for a certain length of time, so at least you know you’re starting with something that’s efficient. When the test doesn’t go fast enough or for long enough, then I guess we could say it’s inconclusive maybe.

Also, Tumeni Notes is a hard fretting pattern, particularly the low strings part. That might complicate the issue of just trying to figure out if the picking motion itself is working. What about a simpler phrase that still involves string changes that you want to be able to do? Maybe something that mixes 1, 2, and 3 notes per string. I’d also choose something that sits on one group of strings where it feels most comfortable to you. Like the top four strings, middle three strings, something like that. Again just trying to separate out the picking challenge from the fretting challenge.

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#25

I’m glad you said this, I was starting to question my guitar future when try to play it.

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#26

There’s one spot in particular where you have to switch from the 8th fret C chord area to the 5th fret A chord area, and there’s pretty much no way to do it without reusing a finger. Not that I’ve been able to figure out. Steve does it by using his thumb over the top of the neck, so he doesn’t have that issue. But I don’t have spider hands like Steve does.

Either way if we’re just using it for picking practice it doesn’t really matter what the fretting pattern is, we can use something easier.

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#27

It’s not something I can do easily because picking this way is still pretty brand new. I don’t see any other way of really doing it that won’t either eliminate the ability to mute or eliminate something else like hybrid picking. Both of which I’m not willing to sacrifice and I’m also not willing to have to completely change orientation for one technique because that can be problematic for live performance.

Here’s a pentatonic 5’s and 3 string roll

Here’s Stabwound by Necroiphagist at 90%(216bpm)

#28

I’ve always used open A string to make the transition. Changes picking pattern a little but it’s still the best no-thumb solution I’ve found.

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#29

Not sure what you mean by “picking this way”, do you mean playing these kinds of phrases? Or are you referring to the motion you’re using?

I don’t need you to change your form at all. The arm position and pick grip you’re using here are fine. The phrase you’ve chosen in the first clip also looks great. This is the kind of thing that has both escapes in it, but is easy enough that you should be able to do it fast, even if it’s sloppy.

The motion in the first clip is stringhopping. I know that sounds like a bad thing, but that’s a good thing in the sense that it’s a very clear problem to solve.

The motion you’re using in these clips, where the wrist and forearm are doing the motorcycle throttle type motion, are you doing that intentionally or is that just what happens when you try to play fast? Because I thought you had a much faster / smoother motion that was just the wrist moving back and forth by itself, without the motorcycle component.

There’s a super slow-mo clip upstream of what looks like wrist motion. Do you have any normal speed versions of what this looks like? Are you comfortable with this motion for longer phrases with sixteenths above 150bpm?

If so, then that’s the motion I want to see on these multi-string phrases. If you can do that wrist motion 170-190 on simple scale phrases, then I want to see basically that same motion at least at 150 sixteenths on these more complicated phrases. I know it will be sloppy. But that’s the first step, and we can’t skip it.

To be clear, when you use only wrist motion to play mixed escape type lines, there is not a real strong feeling of trying to “get over the string”. It just feels like side to side motion of the hand. I know it’s counterintuitive. But when you use wrist motion, what you’re actually looking for to start with is a motion where it doesn’t really feel like you’re doing anything to clear the strings. It should feel effortless and fast, and you should get at least some of the notes right. Some, that’s all we need at first.

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#30

Haven’t tried that! I’ll give that a shot.

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#31

The smooth fast thing you’re referring to I believe is irrelevant because A) I can’t mute with the technique because it’s a thumb side anchor and B) It’s swiping. I can’t get over the strings on down strokes without the motorcycle throttle when in a heel side palm anchor position i.e. mutable picking position.

Here’s the motion that looks good even tho I can’t get over the strings in either direction full speed:

Same lick, same technique, Slow motion. Tried to get closer so you can see the plain as day swiping that’s occurring.

Here’s the new heel side anchor technique that’s inefficient I suppose. Normal speed.

And here’s the same roll and technique in slow mo.

Idk how I can escape the strings on the downstroke with a heel side anchor or mutable position without some sort of 10-2 or motorcycle throttle/forearm mechanic.

I hope I’m not coming off rude! I’ve just been at this forever.

#32

Definitely feel this as well, I already don’t like to stretch much so the left hand seems like the biggest hurdle to me. @gabrielthorn posted a cool rendition in his thread if you haven’t checked it out!

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#33

Having the same issue where if I go smoothly I end up swiping strings hard. Tried slowing it down and thinking the movement through and that hasn’t helped at all either.

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#34

Something to consider for you and the OP @RobertFlores: maybe try picking a little shallower so you’re “deep” enough to have a solid pick stroke, while minimizing the depth of the swipe. @RobertFlores your clips sound like you’re generating a ton of power, which in my experience comes from a deep stroke.

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#35

I’ll try that, but I remember in Troy’s “crosspicking the wrist workshop” he said to get the motion you should be able to do it through the entire range of motion on 1,2 or 3 strings without a significant change in the way the motion feels.

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#36

I think it was in the Steve Morse video where he mentioned you can achieve this by making the arc drawn by your wrist (the “circle”) a larger radius, so you’d be able to hit a wide range of strings easily. In a sense I’m suggesting you do that, but more specifically not having the pick so “deep” in the string. Apologies in advance if this sounds a bit convoluted.

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#37

Not sure what you mean by “deep”, I’m mostly moving my wrist side to side with a slight bit of flexion. I can clear the strings at slower tempos but the movement becomes more bouncy and inefficient.

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#38

@ParkerLicks Quick POV of what I’m referring to. This is the “depth” I speak of, the amount that the tip of your pick crosses the plane of the string. For reference, in these pictures my pick is touching the string. About to perform a downstroke:

20210204_230117
20210204_2301173000×4000 1.77 MB

Setting up for an upstroke:

20210204_230123
20210204_2301233000×4000 1.74 MB

To achieve the level of attack I hear in the OP’s @RobertFlores videos, this is how much deeper I have to pick:

20210204_230207
20210204_2302073000×4000 1.84 MB

20210204_230213
20210204_2302133000×4000 1.85 MB

If I were to try to play like this it would kill my alternate picking, and just based on sound, I would guess that he’s picking close to that depth. Again this might not be the solution y’all are looking for, but it’s something to consider.

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#39

I don’t really think this is the issue. Using less pick just means you’re making smaller mistakes, it doesn’t change the motion. You will go from loudly crashing through strings or getting caught to swiping (which is the issue here). Mechanic of how you move the pick is what primarily determines how well you alternate pick, the other stuff like how big a pick you use, how much of the pick you use etc are more preference and you’ll find players doing lots of different stuff when it comes to that but the types of movements that work tend to be more universal.

Problem afaik is that both me and OP are not able to flex and extend enough to clear the strings while maintaining a “smooth” motion, not the depth of the pick.

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#40

@ParkerLicks I will have to disagree with you on that. I had to check to see if I was misremembering, but sure enough @Troy has already made a video about pick depth. Relevant section at 15 minute mark.

Again I’m not saying that this will solve the issue, just something to consider (based on the OP’s pick attack, nothing more).

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