Dannyjoe Carter and finger mechanics

Playing Technique
#1

I sent Brendan this video probably around a year ago, but since Michael Angelo Batio mentioned him in the live stream I thought it’d make for a fun forum post.

Dannyjoe is a great player from Las Vegas who has some pretty unique mechanics using mainly finger movement and can get some pretty extreme speeds doing so. Not quite sure how he’s doing it, certainly doesn’t work for me, but interesting for certain. He’s aware of Cracking the Code so he might make for an interesting conversation at some point.

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Who would you like to see interviewed next by Troy and the team?
#2

In this video, I’m seeing some interesting finger accomodation in different parts, but it doesn’t seem to be picking driven by the finger movement per se, the way we’ve seen from someone like Takayoshi Ohmura.

The straight alternate-picked parts in the clip above seem to be DWPS driven by forearm rotation with a flexed wrist, similar to Joscho Stephan and other gypsy jazz players (and many rock players, e.g. Marty Friedman).

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#3

That’s interesting, and I hadn’t actually noticed that. Watching back with the super fast stuff there is certainly some arm movement involved, but his fingers aren’t locked like when I do similar things. I’ve asked him about this but he falls into the category of ‘worked it out by feel!’ Thanks for the feedback anyway, plenty to think about there!

#4


Raising this thread from the dead! Here’s a new clip of Dannyjoe that might be of interest to some.

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#5

I do like looking at these different motion mechanics, since we’re still trying to sort of figure out what the body is capable of, realistically, with various movements. And this is some very fast movement here, in the 240bpm range sixteenths, give or take. It’s notable that he can do this apparently pretty effortlessly.

However, the “realistic” part of this is important. The fast take here is basically single-string tremolo - none of the string changes are really being made, and very little of the “slow” phrase is actually being played. It’s not even clear that such a small movement is large enough to get from one string to another and back again, at least not without involving some type of arm movement for the tracking aspect. And that doesn’t appear to be happening. The speed aspect of this is cool and I’d like to know more about how this works. And I’d also like to know if the movement could be employed for multi-string phrases, perhaps in combination with some other movement.

Would I like to see this in slow motion, up close? Sure. I want to see what works, and I also want to see what doesn’t work. I figure we can learn from both. But that’s kind of an awkward video to film, professionally, if you catch what I’m saying.

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#6

Interesting analysis. I thought he was crossing strings, but maybe it’s so quick I can’t quite hear it! There are some other (very short) examples here. Sadly he doesn’t have any super HD footage at the moment.

Here he also shows a hand close up, but sadly it’s without a pick so I’m not sure quite how close it is to what he’s actually doing. I’m guessing he knows what it feels like though, pick or no pick!

#7

To me it’s audible at normal speed — i.e. the fast playing sounds like tremolo. More generally, this is a thing I think about. We want to be able talk about technique as frankly as possible here, in a way that is respectful to players. If a technique exists, then it’s probably useful for something - we just need to know within what parameters. Swiping is a technique, for example, I was worried about initially, in presenting something that can be construed as a ‘mistake’. It’s not a criticism of a player that uses it, if the player sounds good while doing it. And when you watch Batio or Jorge Strunz play scalar lines, for the most part, it does work for them.

Anyway so when we post these clips I assume everyone already hears what the techniques are doing well and not doing well, and is simply asking questions about the ‘doing’ part. But I honestly don’t know. It’s important that we are aware of what can be expected realistically from the time we put into learning these things.

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#8

Now you mention it I can hear it, I probably just wasn’t listening carefully enough! I’m not sure if his particular technique would be helpful for anyone else. I can get similar speeds tremolo picking using an elbow movement similar to @milehighshred, but can’t for the life of me play anything using finger motion that’s worth playing. I posted these clips more from a ‘this is interesting’ point of view than ‘this is what we should all be doing’ point of view if that makes any sense!

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#9

Of course, totally. It is interesting to check out these different movements, and I (we?) get that you’re posting this out of general interest.

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#11

Sounds pretty good to me Hank!

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#12

I’m not sure I see the value of this technique.

Having watched and slowed down the clips above, I don’t think his picking is synchronised with the left hand movement at all. To me, his picking sounds more like a fast percussive noise than a sequence of notes.

On the broader subject of finger mechanics, I’m unconvinced of the merit of finger movement as the primary driving movement of picking.

Most people mention Eric Johnson and Yngwie Malmsteen as their go to examples to demonstrate the merits of finger movement when picking, but I don’t think either of their picking is primarily driven by finger movement. Despite what Eric says on Total Electric Guitar, Eric rarely utilizes any finger movement when picking, and when his fingers are moving, his picking still looks to be driven primarily by wrist deviation. Finger movement is more integral to Yngwie’s playing, but his picking always looks to be driven by forearm rotation.

I’m not totally convinced that Takayoshi Omhura is picking primarily with finger movement either. His picking movements look very similar to Yngwie’s rotational movements to me, but with the finger component exaggerated somewhat.

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#14

I think this is mostly because those notes aren’t being hit. But the tempo is pretty consistent and I dig the muting - I’d totally use this in a metal tune where you want heavy muting.

I’m pretty sure this movement could be used for fast one-way pickslanting type lines. As long as the line moves in a straight line from one string to the next, as opposed to back and forth across strings, the movement size is less of an obstacle, because you can just use an additional tracking movement like wrist, elbow, etc.

This is more an issue of player awareness - knowing what the technique can and cannot do, and more importantly, being able to hear for yourself whether or not you’re actually playing what you think you are. It would seem like this should be obvious, but the whole “use your ears” thing is very misleading advice. Everyone’s hearing is colored by ego and a hundred other factors. I am certainly guilty of fooling myself about what I’m successfully playing. This is why magnet footage is such an eye-opener for a lot of people. You think you’re hitting those notes, especially if it’s something you’ve attempted for years and have stopped evaluating. But then you take a look at it…

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#15

There are rare cases like Takayoshi Ohmura where something exceptional that’s primarily finger-driven is happening, but by and large I think most “pro finger movement” advice ends up describing something subtle that happens in connection with another movement mechanic. I don’t think the thumb always needs to be locked up to achieve impressive speed, despite what Michael Angelo Batio has concluded from his observations, but while I’ve seen impressive technique that has a finger movement component, I’ve yet to see a prescription for a particular kind of finger movement that can be readily applied by students. Where I think people might go wrong is if they have something that works that includes some type of subtly finger motion, and they mistakenly believe it’s absolutely necessary to completely eliminate the finger motion component. If it’s hurting your consistency, then sure, but guys like Yngwie and Martin Miller have incorporated subtle finger movement at some places in their technique that don’t seem to cause problems, though they’re using finger movement in a supplementary way, not as the primary driver.

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#16

Hi @Frylock.

I agree with you that it’s not necessary to completely avoid thumb & finger movement to achieve impressive speeds. There are plenty of fast players out there who do incorporate some degree of thumb & finger movement.

That said, I see little benefit to thumb & finger movements. I feel that the importance of thumb and finger movement is overstated when people discuss the picking techniques of Eric Johnson and Yngwie Malmsteen.

Again, thumb and finger movement is very noticeable in Omhura’s playing, but based on what I’ve seen, I don’t feel that it is the primary driving movement in his picking technique.

In this video, there are some excellent CTC-style angles of his picking technique.

From these angles we can clearly see his forearm rotating during his fast picking. The movement is quite small (as Yngwie’s rotational mechanic is), but it seems, to me, to be the primary movement driving his picking. From this angle, the thumb & finger component seems, to me, to be primarily for string tracking purposes. To me, it looks like he sets the picking position with his thumb and finger, and drives the picking movement via his forearm rotation. From these angles, it doesn’t seem to me that the thumb & finger are moving on each pick stroke.

From the head on angles, the rotational component of the movement is difficult to see, and the thumb & finger movement seems to be driving the picking movement. I think this is something of an optical illusion caused by the rotational component and the poor viewing angle.

I could certainly be wrong, but Omhura’s picking doesn’t seem, to me, to be primarily driven by thumb & finger movements. At the very least, it’s absolutely undeniable that his picking is not purely driven by thumb & finger movements.

For these reasons, I don’t see Omhura’s technique as a validation of thumb & finger based movements, and I remain unconvinced of the merits of these movements. I’ve actually found it annoying how closed-minded many of the proponents of thumb & finger based movements (the ever nebulous and poorly defined"circle picking") can be concerning the limitations of these movements, and the validity of other approaches (which are much less dubious).

I find it annoying also that Omhura, and Eric and Yngwie to a lesser degree, are held up as the champions of this technique, when none of these players use pure thumb & finger movements.

I also agree that I have not seen a readily applicable prescription for a thumb & finger based picking technique.

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#17

While there are clearly times when he’s picking without significant finger movement, in the video below, he demonstrates his use of finger movement, and at least part of it is with a relatively pronated forearm and little, if any, visible forearm movement. At 7:23 he apparently repeats his Japanese commentary in English.

Edit: In the English at the end he emphasizes thinking about movement of the index finger rather than movement of the thumb, but seems to indicate subtle forearm movement in combination by saying “also twist your fist”.

Relevant part starts at about 5:05:

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#18

Hi @Frylock.

Thanks for the reply. I hadn’t seen that video previously.

When he first demonstrates the fast picking movement at about 5:50, it does seem to me that there is some forearm rotation, though the movement is small. There is certainly still some finger & thumb movement, but I’m still not sure if it’s the primary movement driving the picking at those speeds. On slowing the video down, it really looks like it begins as primarily rotational, with the finger movement becoming more prominent as he continues.

It’s at least clear from the video you posted that he at believes the movement to be finger based, or to be a compound movement with finger and rotational elements.

Interesting video, thanks again.

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#19

Just a fly on the wall here - I haven’t really done anything with finger movements. Ohmura seems like a nice guy and we’d be happy to reach out to him if we’re ever over there again.

As far as some movements being “primary” and others not, you’d really need to convince me of that. No doubt, movements exists in blends, across a spectrum. The wrist is a classic example of this. You can do pure deviation. You can do pure flexion/extension. And for just about every point in between, there is a blend that exists more of one, less of the other. I’m not sure at which point deviation becomes “primary” and flexion becomes the “secondary”. Or if it’s just, you know, two movements happening simultaneously in some ratio.

As another example, look at Martin Miller’s technique. It’s a combination of wrist, fingers and forearm that he uses to generate the movement. There’s not a ton of forearm rotation happening. However, if you took it away, it’s quite possible he couldn’t play, since it’s the forearm that causes the upstrokes to escape. In other words, even though the amount of the movement seems small compared to what we know the forearm’s range of motion to be, if it’s critical to what he does, then I don’t see it being any less “primary” than the other movements he makes.

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#20

Hi @Troy.

I think there are criteria by which the relative importance of the elemental movement in a compound movement can be judged. I realize I should have included a brief discussion of the criteria by which I would make such a judgement.

When I speak of a particular movement pattern as driving the picking, my focus is limited entirely to the task of moving the point of the pick up and down through the line of the string.

For this reason, such a movement pattern must be cyclical with it’s frequency exactly half that of the number of notes picked per second. Any other movements which are introduced as necessary, to allow for escaping strokes or string tracking, or any other purpose, are not driving movements.

In Martin Miller’s technique, it doesn’t seem to me that his finger movement occurs on every pick stroke. It seems to me that this movement, while an essential component of his picking technique, is not a driving movement. I’m sure you’ve studied Martin’s technique more closely than I have, so if this is incorrect, please let me know.

It is of course possible that driving movements can achieve more than the alternating up and down cycle.

It seems to me, that most cited examples of players who use finger driven picking are instead using finger movements as required in particular situations. It seems to me that in some cases, finger movement is essentially superfluous.

I don’t believe finger movement is a driving component in Eric Johnson’s playing, as when it appears (which is quite rarely), it does not seem to be cyclical to me. I’m not even sure if Eric’s occasional finger movements serve any useful purpose at all.

Finger movement is more prominent in Yngwie’s playing, but his finger movements don’t look cyclical to me either. I think the finger movements are for string tracking purposes, with the cyclical movement being rotational, as you’ve discussed before.

Omhura is interesting because it seems from the video that @Frylock posted that, at least some of the time, Omhura may be incorporating finger movements as part of the driving cycle. I think there are other situations (as in the video I posted), where the cyclical movement is rotational with finger movement being for tracking purposes.

In both videos, it appears to me that there is always a rotational component to the driving cycle, so I don’t believe that Omhura’s fast picking is ever purely driven by finger movements.

If the cyclical movements are indeed compound movements, there could still be movements which are primary in the sense that they provide the necessary range of motion and the necessary force to push through the string, and secondary movements which do not.

A secondary movement could be present for a number of reasons. It could be a movement which allows pick strokes to escape the plane of the strings, but which is minimal when the escape is not required.

At higher speeds, a secondary movement could be a remnant of a movement which is primary at a lower speed, but does not provide a significant portion of the force to push through the string or range or motion at the higher speed.

It is in this sense that I cannot determine to what degree Omhura’s picking is finger driven. It could be that at higher speeds, the finger movement is providing the power and the rotation is providing range of motion, or vice verse. It could be that both components are essential, or that one is redundant.

If this posit doesn’t convince you, I hope it at least explains my thinking.

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#21

“…none of the string changes are really being made…” I respect what you’ve done with your research into the mechanics of picking but to say that about a guy you haven’t seen play in person is irresponsible and does a disservice to your readers. I have seen Dannyjoe Carter play in person. I stood right in front of him and can verify that he does cleanly pick all the notes he is fretting in these licks. He has the most extreme speed, accuracy, and economy of motion I’ve ever come across. How does he do it? He uses his thumb and index finger to move the pick.

There is a video in this thread that shows just how fast he can move his thumb back and forth - to the point it becomes a blur and that’s true for seeing him in person as well. It’s not that the camera doesn’t record fast enough to show everything. His thumb and index finger became a blur when he demonstrated this to me in person.

Have you ever tried to contact him for an interview? I subscribe to Masters Of Mechanics and have never seen you interview an alternate picker like Dannyjoe who generates this type of speed and accuracy as well as economy of motion from his unique picking style. Many of the players you have analyzed in Masters Of Mechanics pick in a fairly similar way; it becomes redundant from an educational point of view. However, this would be something new and fresh for your subscribers as it’s a picking style, a method of generating pick motion you have not yet discussed in Masters Of Mechanics.

#22

Oh boy I’m supposed to be staying away from the “danger” posts… if somebody is missing string changes on a video, seeing him in person isn’t going to magically correct the event mishap in the space/time continuum. I’m hearing a bunch of percussion… it’s my interpretation that the guy is not sounding every note. For whatever reason. Isn’t this how Chris Impellitteri sounded in the beginning? 'bunch of hummingbird percussion.

I’m done bye bye :kiss::kiss: snuggles :bear: