David Grier Question For Troy

Masters in Mechanics
#1

I noticed David Grier uses an upward pick slant when picking a note with an upstroke on the high E to a downstroke on a note on the G string for example. This method of picking using an upward pick slant when playing an upstroke on high E to a downstroke on B or G goes against the basic principle that you and your team discovered. He’s not swiping either.

How do you think he’s able to make that work for him and are there other examples of players you’ve noticed also doing this quickly and cleanly? Thanks!

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#2

I think @Troy has said he’s aiming to produce some improved introductory material on this style of picking, but for now, he’s got lots of explanation about it in the Steve Morse, Albert Lee, and Carl Miner interviews. There are quite a few threads about it on the forum as well. The label @Troy has been using for this type of picking technique is “crosspicking”, owing to how frequently it’s observed when accomplished bluegrass guitarists play the banjo roll style licks that the bluegrass world refers to as “crosspicking”.

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#3

Cross picking or not, according to CTC, you’re nt supposed t be able to pick an upstroke on the high E with an upward pick slant and then play a note on an adjacent string or a string that’s 2 strings away. The upstroke has to be a DWPS on the high E to then be able to be play a downstroke on an adjacent, lower string, or a string that’s a lower string 2 or 3 strings away. What does the fact that it’s bluegrass have over the physics of the movement?

#4

@Troy is using the word “crosspicking” to refer to a particular “type of picking technique”. The pick motions of that type of picking technique are physically different from the more linear pick motions of UWPS and DWPS. It’s one of the string-switching solutions beyond DWPS and UWPS that CTC has covered. Troy first presented analysis of this technique in the Steve Morse interview, which was originally released in June of 2015.

It can be applied to one-note-per-string licks played with alternate picking in any style of music, but because those types of licks are found more often in bluegrass than in other styles, @Troy has most often seen it “in the wild” being applied by bluegrass players.

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#5

May I ask then, what is the movement that keeps the pick from getting “trapped in the strings” in this type of picking since we are “breaking the rules” that lead to the creation of TWPS in the first place? And not swiping either.

#6

The short answer is that the pickstroke is curved, and only dips into the plane of the strings at the bottom of the curve.

At 9m25s, the video below goes into a bit more detail. Troy has some other material about the how of producing these pickstrokes, but I don’t have links handy. Searching the forum for threads on “crosspicking” will probably bring up some good stuff.

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#7

I had seen this before in masters Of mechanics but I guess I didn’t remember that part of it That’s probably because when I crosspick I don’t use a rolling motion. It’s unnecessary. I use 2WPS for cross picking. I don’t know why this is somehow unusual since, after all, the objective is the same, to switch strings efficiently.

The way I crosspick is much more similar to how they show Rusty Cooley doing it. He’s not using a rolling motion either as far as I could see and he is using the correct pick slants according to the CTC method of alternate picking, just like I do.

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#8

Short answer, wrist extension. This is not two-way pickslanting. As @Frylock has pointed out, this is what we have (for better or worse) been calling “crosspicking” technique. The Morse video doesn’t get it right. Here is the correct technical explanation of how it works:

https://troygrady.com/interviews/albert-lee/analysis-chapter-4-the-compound-curve/

And on YT:

The movement has two halves, one above and one below the string. Albert Lee uses the supinated form. David is using the pronated form, so the movements are flipped compared to Albert’s movements. In other words, the downstroke is ulnar deviation + wrist flexion above the string, and just ulnar deviation below. The upstroke, which you have noticed, is radial deviation below the string, and radial deviation and wrist extension from the string on up. Wrist extension provides the escape.

And now you’re sorry you asked!

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#9

“And now you’re sorry you asked!”

No, not at all! I find this technical stuff fascinating. Ever since I was a young boy, whenever a subject interested me, I wanted to know as much about it as possible. I know more about terms like supination and wrist flexion than the average guy because when I was 10 years old, I became fascinated with the idea of getting stronger and I bought a pair of dumbbells, 11 pounds each. “Executive Dumbells” was what they were called. Within a few months I got a 110 pound weight set with a bench for bench presses, flyes, incline bench presses, etc. Within a year or so when I flexed, my biceps looked like baseballs and were abut as hard. The kids at school were totally blown away (one of the reasons why only one guy in my entire 12 years of public education had the nerve to ask me if I was a nerd and he never asked again. In fact, he never even dared look me in the eye again. I didn’t have to whip has ass; I just stared him down until he looked like he finally realized he’d made a grave error in judgement.

I worked out like a madman and read every available book and magazine on the subject of weight training and bodybuilding during grades 5 through 12. Sometimes I see parallels between doing what it takes to get faster, cleaner, and just plain better at guitar and some of the principles involved in weight training and bodybuilding.

There exists such a thing as overtraining in weight training and when one becomes seriously overtrained he is more susceptible to getting sick and/or injured. In addition his gains not only cease; he may actually start getting weaker. In fact getting weaker is a certainty if the overtraining is bad enough.

I believe excessive practice, especially high intensity practice which involves playing at maximal speeds and picking hard as well, has the potential to lead to a situation very similar to overtraining for a bodybuilder.

Another principle from which I can draw a parallel is that the body only grows stronger when demands are placed upon the system which are greater than it is capable of making entirely. In other words, growth cannot be coaxed or cajoled; growth must literally be forced! In guitar playing, if one where to never try to play faster than he is currently capable of playing, his speed would not increase. It is only when pushed to play a lick or a scale at a speed greater than what one is currently capable of playing comfortably, that the body responds by becoming a faster guitarist. Improvements in speed and accuracy must literally be forced! It’s unwise to go too far past what one is capable of or the player risks incurring an injury. There are many parallels that can be drawn between these two disciplines! That’s one more in itself; both becoming a great bodybuilder or powerlifter and becoming a great guitar player require tremendous discipline.

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#10

Where is the line between this and string hopping? At what point do we say it’s one or the other? You’ve mentioned that my playing looks hoppy in some of my early attempts to figure out 2wps… when I could have leveled out the slanting, and stopped rocking, and essentially be crosspicking.

:bear:

#11
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#12

lol, touché. So the goal is to avoid flexion and extension? I’m getting wrist and forearm rotation when I try this.

:bear:

#13

No, just repetitive flexion and extension. Stringhopping is when you make the same movements on both the upstroke and the downstroke. Muscles don’t get a chance to recover, so you are slow and stressed out. It is, essentially, no longer alternate picking. i.e. Even though you are making “upstrokes” and “downstrokes”, the muscles don’t alternate, so it’s only marginally better than repeated pickstrokes.

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