DBX & DSX: How to switch from one to the other

Playing Technique
#1

Hi all. I’m reviewing the pickslanting primer and I’m a bit confused on the relationship between double escape and downward escape as it relates to RDT wrist motion.

At about 20 seconds in this video, Troy starts explaining that the wrist form used for double escape is the same one used for downward escape. My question is what exactly needs to be changed in order to make the switch from DBX to DSX? Earlier in the series, he mentioned that Andy Wood makes the switch to single downward escape automatically when he starts playing lines above a certain speed. So is it purely a speed thing (as in the transition will happen automatically past a certain speed) or is a conscious effort being made to switch techniques from double to single escape?

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere. If anyone can link me to the right thread, I’ll delete this one. Thanks!

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#2

I think this is an excellent question and an opportunity for interesting discussion.I would encourage you not to delete the thread.

I think it’s worth starting by saying that we’re discussing the relationship between two very specific forms, and not a relationship that exists between DBX and DSX generally. In particular, we’re discussing the relationship betweeen two forms based on the RDT wrist movement; the curved “902” DBX form and the more linear “802” DSX form.

I think it’s fair to say that how movements change as a function of tempo is a complex topic, and I think it’s difficult to draw a clear line between an intentional change in movement and the emergent variation arising naturally from increasing movement frequency. I’m not sure that this question can be answered definitively without measuring the activation of the muscles in laboratory conditions across multiple test subjects.

I dont want to speak for @Troy, he might be able to provide a more concrete answer.

However, I can perform both ot these forms and I can speak anecdotally. To me, these techniques feel very similar. In the DSX form, it feels like I’m deliberately picking through the string in both directions in mirrored fashion. In the DBX form, it feels like the downstroke slides or “bows” the edge of the pick the string in the outward direction, while the upstroke feels like I’m accepting some energy from the collision with the string and that this results in an outwards deflection. I do not consciously alter the movement trajectory.

The “bowing” downstroke seems to be a function of combining a DSX movement with a downward slant. The upstroke should involve a garage spike, but with a loose enough picking hand and a particular combination of slant and edge picking, the collision with the string seems to “ramp” the hand outward to provide the escape.

Again, this isn’t definitive, but this is how I perceive the difference, and I think the explanation is plausible.

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#3

Just the direction the wrist is going - nothing in the overall form.

If you’re trying to deliberately “do” a DSX pickstroke, a simple thing you can try is an upstroke rest stroke. This gives you something concrete you can semi-consciously attempt to try to get the wrist to move the way you want.

Yes the pick attack question is complicated. If the pickstroke is truly semicircular, and you have some sort of pickslant (either one), then you shouldn’t get garage spikes in either direction. One direction will slide over, the other direction will have an escape that is congruent with the pickslant so no issues either.

I don’t think people need to nerd out on this too much in actual practice. Get in the general ballpark formwise for whatever the technique is suppoosed to be, and then try to play the target phrases.

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#4

I agree, I’m just trying to convey my perception of the differences. I’m not consciously changing the trajectory, but I do recognise a difference in sensation between “breaking through” the string in both directions and the “slide and skip” feeling.

#5

Big thanks @Tom_Gilroy and @Troy! Appreciate the detailed responses. :slightly_smiling_face:

Interesting. I’ve read other people on this forum describe the sensation of the string ‘deflecting’ the pick outwards upon collision to create the escape. Is this kind of what you’re describing here? As an experiment, I tuned my strings up a step so tension was higher and definitely felt them knock my pick around a bit more.

Gotcha. So it really is a micro-adjustment by the sounds of it. From experience, are you quite conscious of when you change from one to the other when the tempos get zoomy?

I’ve heard you address this before, so apologies for the redundancy, but just to reiterate what I think I understand: it’s generally observed that this 902 DBX wrist motion we’re talking about here has a bit of a speed limit (16ths @ 170-180-ish tops??) before it tends to transition to single-escape. I suppose if that weren’t the case, 1nps crosspicking using this form would be a breeze and the USX variant would be rendered essentially superfluous. Do I have that about right?

Strangely enough, when I assume the wrist form taught for DBX and start speeding it up, I find that my upstrokes are the ones that tend to escape rather than the downstrokes. In order to get a satisfying downward-escape, I seem to REALLY need to flatten out that forearm. I can still pick pretty quickly within that posture (16ths @ 210 for a good several bars), but I imagine some other helper movement (feels like the elbow) is assisting with that, which I’m concerned is introducing some unnecessary fatigue that wouldn’t otherwise be there if it was all wrist.

I’ve been experimenting with an upstroke rest stroke to hack the DSX motion and I think that it’s improved the reliability somewhat. I’ve caved in and ordered the magnet so I’ll post a video here soon. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

Thanks again to you both for the tips!

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#6

Yes, this is what I perceive. The idea of throwing a stone so that it skips along the surface of water has been a helpful analogy for some of my students.

I can perform the movement without almost any pick and string gauge, but I definitely find the movement feels most comfortable on an acoustic guitar with heavier strings (I use 12s) and a 346 style pick shape.

On electric guitars I use lighter strings (9s or 9.5s mostly) and Jazz III picks, and it definitely feels like I have to do more work.

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#7

Sorry for being dense! Once you find yourself writing paragraphs this is almost always the point where I say, show me video of the problem, whatever it may me. If it’s a specific phrase or phrasesa, what is the phrase and what happens when you play it? When in doubt, please make a TC on the platform, we’re happy to take a look!

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