Definitive Stringhopping vs DBX?

Playing Technique
#1

Hi,

It’s fairly well documented on here by now what stringhopping is (and that it is technically a form of DBX, by escaping on both sides of the string, albeit a slow/inefficient/ not fantastically sustainable one at speed), as well as what the more desirable DBX form is…

But what is the definitive visible difference between the two? Is it just a matter of the V-shape escape pattern of SH being reduced in severity/angle to become U-shaped? Is it simply that one should adopt a supinated / less flat forearm position, because from there, SH is not as possible/less likely to be the natural reflex? Or both? (Or more pronated if that’s the base form/just not a flat forearm?)

At what point exactly does the undesirable V-escape become flat enough, to not count as SH? Or when does the U-escape become too angled - this seems most relevant to me because any departure from lightly supinated RDT DSX taxes my speed too heavily (I know singe-direction-escape is easier to make faster, but the reduction is too much…).

I’m asking because I have decent ‘lightly supinated RDT DSX’ form for most of my fast playing and am hoping to not need to flop drastically towards ‘more exaggeratedly supinated’ form every time I sneak a picked (varying NPS) arpeggio into my lines.

DBX vs SH is described at the very bottom of this link on here, but this is so little to go on (e.g. no video comparison of the two back to back) compared to the depth across the rest of this great platform.

Thanks :metal:

2 Likes
#2

The laziest possible answer is:

If it can go fast = dbx
If not = stringhopping

Plus a forum worth of nuances :rofl:

5 Likes
#3

I don’t know if this will be helpful, but for what it’s worth:

Your definitional questions are easy to answer:

  • DBX means you escape on the upstroke and the downstroke, as you said
  • Stringhopping means you use the same muscles for the upstroke and the downstroke

U-shape, V-shape, degree of supination, visible differences, etc. are red herrings here. If you use the same muscles for the upstroke as you do for the downstroke, you are stringhopping. That’s the whole definition. The real test is the speed itself: If you can’t pick much faster than 120 bpm 16ths, you are almost certainly stringhopping. If you can play 16ths at 200 bpm, you are almost certainly not stringhopping.

But it’s clear that your question is less academically definitional and more mechanical: How do I DBX without stringhopping? The problem here is that neither DBX nor stringhopping are motions. DBX is simply a description of escape, and stringhopping is a mechanical cause of inefficiency. There are many motions that can result in either or both of them. Talking about them in the abstract is sure to lead to frustration.

So what’s the solution? My preferred approach is to try to play something I currently can’t play, and vary my approach until I find easy. But if you want more specific mechanical instruction than that, I recommend you post a video showcasing the trouble you’re having with a specific line, and ask for input from the community. There are too many variations in available mechanics for the good folks here to give you a prescription for improving or expanding your existing technique without seeing and hearing it directly. Create a technique critique, since you are a MM member, and you’ll get direct help from the team itself.

Edit: In other words, what Tommo said.

3 Likes
#4

The video that went into detail about the clock-face analysis of DBX motions was pretty enlightening to me (I don’t have the link on hand since I’m on mobile). In general as far as I understand it, there are various DBX motions but commonly it can be a single escape motion where the trajectory into the trapped zone is amended. So if you have a slant, it’s the same trajectory as for the say USX, but instead of going into the trapped zone on the downstroke, you slightly change the trajectory to go slightly up.

1 Like
#5

The stringhopping and crosspicking presets on this site are great for demonstrating the visual differences between them: https://pickbotpick.netlify.app/

As long as you’re using flexion/extension for both upstrokes and downstrokes you are stringhopping. When you’re using deviation for one and flexion/extension for the other and it feels smooth and effortless, you probably have achieved an efficient DBX motion.

Sounds the same as my single escape form, the only difference I notice between my DBX and DSX is that when it switches to DSX the deviation portion of the movement disappears, everything else about my setup is the same :slight_smile:

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#6

Thanks, I keep forgetting that that Pickbot link exists! Used it eyars ago and now clarified the issue better than my question did. :facepunch:

I knew about the “using same muscles for both escapes” problem mentioned by @induction above, but had heard (mis)heard Troy saying somewhere that deviation was inefficient/to be avoided at speed, so was miscalibrated on that.

It also seems like I often (especially live for lead playing, when suddenly clamping my guitar with my picking forearm for stability) end up in Pronated(!) RDT… which still works fine for DSX… but nobody talks about that form, so didn’t occur to me I might be doing that, causing the radially deviated upstroke escape of DBX in that form to not escape (leading to higher elevation of the upstroke and thereby… stringhopping :smiley: ).

#7

Thanks, yeah that’s my understanding of it too. It’s just that with the lack of tactile feedback (from the rest stroke possible in single escape RDT, or the thumb hitting the strings also as a sort of rest stroke), it seems very tension-causing / speed-robbing to try to perceive the contact of the pick with the picked string as the turning point for the change of direction/motion. :v: