Downpicking Exhaustion

Technique Critique
#1

Hey all,

Got an interesting one for you. I know we’re mostly a lead-playing group of guitarists here, but I’ve been having trouble with my rhythm playing–in particular my downpicking. Accuracy be damned, I notice when there’s an open stroke my endurance goes a lot farther than if I’m just straight downpicking when I’m going fast. Everything just seems to tense up more and I slow down a bit. I’ve tracked it here with the slow-mo, and I’m wondering if anyone can help me out. I’ve been doing rhythm with the forearm-wrist motion for a while now, though I’m predominantly an exclusive wrist player ala Andy Wood (but primarily UWPS) and an elbow player ala Rusty Cooley and get a lot more speed with those techniques in general. That said, the downpicking just sounds better to my ears doing the forearm technique with the side of the palm against all the strings, and that’s generally how I’ve noticed rhythm players playing. But getting up to the 220bpm-range at 8th notes has presented some challenges, where I just start tiring out and slow down a good bit. Anyone able to help me out with this? And anything I can do to improve accuracy at those speeds?

#2

By “open stroke” do you mean “escape stroke”, where the pick goes away from the body of the guitar / over the strings? If so, that makes sense, but it doesn’t have anything to do with whether the pick is trapped or escaped. It has to do with the joint motion you are using.

With the arm position you’re using, an escape stroke would use what we call “Reverse Dart Thrower” motion, which is a more efficient type of wrist motion. That’s why it feels easier. But you could just as easily do the motion as an upstroke, which would be trapped, and it would still feel easy. In the update we just released to the Pickslanting Primer, I demonstrate all-upstrokes at 250 beats per minute:

The motions are gigantic, and are still easier and faster than many other joint motions which are small. It all has to do with which joint motion you use. When the motion is efficient, the downstrokes (or upstroke) don’t get as tired.

You can increase the efficiency by aligning your choice of joint motion more closely with the Reverse Dart Thrower axis. One way to do this is by using a three-finger pick grip. This is probably why Hetfield does this. This is all discussed in this most recent update to the Primer, if you have access to it.

#3

I found MoP easier once I stopped trying to slam every note as hard as possible and treated it more like STRONG-weak-weak-STRONG-weak-weak etc

Definitely worth messing with dynamics to see what that teaches you, i.e. play as hard as possible even if that means going a lot slower, see how fast you can go if you pick as lightly as you can

#4

I found MoP easier once I stopped trying to slam every note as hard as possible and treated it more like STRONG-weak-weak-STRONG-weak-weak etc
Definitely worth messing with dynamics to see what that teaches you, i.e. play as hard as possible even if that means going a lot slower, see how fast you can go if you pick as lightly as you can

Finally got time to revisit this. I tried doing just that, but I run into the same issue. My forearm gets exhausted.

By “open stroke” do you mean “escape stroke”, where the pick goes away from the body of the guitar / over the strings? If so, that makes sense, but it doesn’t have anything to do with whether the pick is trapped or escaped. It has to do with the joint motion you are using.

I do mean “escape stroke” in this instance, I guess I was more using the differentiation of palm muted notes vs. open notes.

With the arm position you’re using, an escape stroke would use what we call “Reverse Dart Thrower” motion, which is a more efficient type of wrist motion. That’s why it feels easier. But you could just as easily do the motion as an upstroke, which would be trapped, and it would still feel easy.

You can increase the efficiency by aligning your choice of joint motion more closely with the Reverse Dart Thrower axis. One way to do this is by using a three-finger pick grip. This is probably why Hetfield does this.

I managed to have a look through all the new sections, but I’m still finding myself unsure of HOW to better align my right hand with the axis, cause I feel like I’m doing that already, but probably not. Worth mentioning I can get tremolo speeds around 220-230 if I’m pushing it, but the downpicking seems to still exhaust specifically my forearm. I tried the three-finger thing, but I kept wanting to go back to my usual two finger pad-side grip that I use for everything else. I’m still tensing my forearm which is slowing me down.

Worth asking, but does sitting in classical position affect this? Cause a lot of rhythm players I see in the regular seated position, but I use classical position for everything.

#5

Hi there!

When you say “wanting to go back”: is it because the motion is unfamiliar? or is it uncomfortable? If it’s just the lack of familiarity, I would suspend judgment for a moment and give it your best try anyway. If it works, awesome! If not, you won’t have lost much.

Also, once you get familiar with it, you should be able to quite easily switch between a 3- and 2- finger grips in a fractin of a second (I guess you’ll need at least a tiny pause in the music, but in most cases you’ll get that at some point).

I think you can give a shot to the more “rock” seating position and let us know if it changes anything. Also, you could try standing up with a strap at different heights. Would be interesting to know if you notice any difference between these different options.

#6

When you say “wanting to go back”: is it because the motion is unfamiliar? or is it uncomfortable? If it’s just the lack of familiarity, I would suspend judgment for a moment and give it your best try anyway. If it works, awesome! If not, you won’t have lost much.

I’m finding it uncomfortable more than anything. I can do it, but it doesn’t seem to change the arm exhaustion. I can do 200 bpm relatively comfortably (a little tension, but not much, but still too much thinking about it to sing at the same time ala Master), but pushing it beyond that is where I run into issues.

I think you can give a shot to the more “rock” seating position and let us know if it changes anything. Also, you could try standing up with a strap at different heights. Would be interesting to know if you notice any difference between these different options.

Gave that a shot, it seems a little easier in the rock position. It’s not totally comfortable, however. I’m still tensing my tricep and my forearm going at higher speeds.

#7

I’d try extending the last joint in your index finger, and extending the other fingers as well. I made a quick video to explain:

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#8

I’d try extending the last joint in your index finger, and extending the other fingers as well. I made a quick video to explain:

So like this?

I am noticing it seems a bit easier, I’m guessing because it seems to fall more in line with the reverse dart thrower motion, and feels better than three fingers, but my index finger feels pretty weird. The pick also keeps sliding. Probably cause it’s unfamiliar, but I’ll keep at it. The motion feels smoother, but there’s a part of me that wants to try and nail the two-finger less vertical motion cause it falls in line better with how I usually play, which is Andy Wood style. So like the ergonomic mouse that’s more horizontal.

#9

Could be the angle, but it looks like you’re not totally locking out the last joint. That would probably explain why the pick keeps sliding (at least in my experience, locking out the last joint inherently produces more force). I made another video to explain:

I used to try to get my lead and rhythm technique to be the same, but eventually came to the conclusion that there’s inherent pros and cons to each. You may or may not come to the same conclusion, I just wanted to say that it’s ok if you use different techniques for different things.