Hey there!
I think a lot of the problems with switching the hand setup have to do with string tracking. It seems that UWPS and DWPS each favor different tactile reference points on the instrument, and switching between them can feel very weird. At least it did for me.
I have always been an upward pickslanter when it came to fast alternate picking. I never knew exactly why but now I guess it had to do with my strategy for string tracking. While playing on the higher strings I used the palm of my right hand to keep the lower strings from ringing. The feeling of the the palm resting on the lower strings - or even the guitar body when playing the low strings - became my reference point for string tracking. Also the wrist would be very close to the instrument body or even touching it, adding to the “anchored” feeling of this setup.
When experimenting with DWPS after watching Troy’s videos I found I had to give up all these reference points, and boy did that feel strange! Playing accurate single-note lines with on “open wrist” was completely weird for me. I had used the open wrist position for strumming but it didn’t require the precision needed for single-note playing. To get more stability I started letting my right ring and pinky fingers slightly touch the top of the guitar and even let them curl under the top strings when playing on the low strings. This became my new reference point for string tracking and by now DWPS feels almost as natural as UWPS, and it’s great having it in my toolbox.
So switching from UWPS to DWPS is not merely about changing pick angles but about shifting your whole center of gravity, along with the tactile reference points on the instrument that are needed for precise playing. You need to abandon old habits, which are probably very deeply ingrained in your muscle memory, in favor of new ones. This is a challenge but it can be mastered and the results are very rewarding.
What I find fascinating about your picture is you are definintely DWPS, yet your wrist is not turned upward. In order for me to get the same position, I feel like I have to turn wrist “upward” to get that same position. I’m envious!
String tracking is a 'UUUGE issue for me when trying to bust my DWPS chops, you are totally correct on this and your explanation of UWPS mirrors my technique.
I’ve been experimenting with the aforementioned “Rest Stroke” strategy and I think I might have found a good practice method for getting with DWPS thing happening. Switching the center of gravity is a big issue for me but fingers crossed I’ll be able to get it happening.
care up to upload a video for us who haven’t got it yet. 
so after watching Teemu’s interview about half way through I have decided that I am abandoning my current
method of holding the pick with 3 fingers (thumb, index and middle) and going with the standard thumb and
index finger way. This came to me after he said something to the effect of “3 finger pick holding creates a more parallel position to the strings or a flat position” which is opposite of what you want in DWPS.
It’s been very strange (how do you guys play like this?) but I’m going to press on and see how it goes. wish me luck.
lol, thanks! If I finger anchor like the one picture, I usually economy circle pick. Forearm anchor and use palm for tracking and muting when I close hand. That’s usually economy picking also. All DWPS. I’m starting to 2 way pick slant when I’m alternate picking… that’s from the closed hand also. I guess my DWPS happens in the fingers and not from free floating the wrist. Well anyways, I guess try a bunch of ways till something works. Troy’s pick posture advise seems to be the best I’ve seen. He explains it on this thread.
I’m a economy picker… I’m trying to get better at alternate picking. It’s the old dog new tricks a little. You guys are whipper snappers. LOL . Here is me jamming a little earlier today:
Have a good weekend everyone!!!
-Hank
Yes, I forgot to mention rest strokes. They are yet another string tracking device. Good luck on becoming a DWPS master!
Would you be willing to upload a video explaining/demonstrating what you mean when you say “circle picking”? I’ve heard a number of people use this term over the years, and I’m not convinced that they all mean the same thing.
I saw the short snippet on YouTube. Man, that Teemu video was incredible.
Also would love to know how he gets thats smooth tone.
Ok, small first impression update for some of the strategies outlined by my fellow Coders.
I rewatched the Teemu interview and probably spent 3 hours working some DWSP chops, focusing on the position of my arm, the rotational movement and my pick grip. I decided to go with a strong gypsy style grip with a pronounced forearm motion (may as well dive in and do something totally different) similar to Teemu’s tremolo-picking stance. I resisted the urge to anchor anywhere beside my forearm resting, though I noticed my pinking gripping the bottom of my bridge pickups once in a while. I learned quite a bit about the issues I was having…
A) Relaxing. I notice that I sometimes tense up when changing strings. Sometimes I tense up even when changing notes on the same string which totally disrupts the flow of my movements.
B) Consistency. I really struggle to repeat the same small motion over an over again. I feel like I’m unable to to do exact same thing twice in a row, much less 8 or 16 or 32 times in a row. This is something that I struggle with in most facets of my life, not just guitar technique. My handwriting is really hit/miss, for example.
C) Pick Grip. This probably falls under point A but it’s such a key thing that I feel the need to single it out. I tend to have a pretty firm grip on my pick, which makes it pretty difficult for the pick to pass through the string. There’s a “sweet spot” in terms of grip tensions that gives the pick a bit of flex from your fingers and allows it to pass through the string much easier.
So, here are the strategies I’ve found to try and work around these issues.
A) Thinner Picks. This is probably seems like a weird approach, but some of the best guitarists in my local scene are using rather thin picks. I tried using Dunlop 0.60 today during a morning warm-up and found that it was much easier to get the pick through the strings. It’s not totaly fool-proof–I still can’t get away with a death-grip on the pick. But it helps mitigate some of the resistance I’m working against
B) Rest-Strokes. This is probably the biggest light-bulb moment I’ve had with the DWPS struggles. By focusing even pick stroke into a rest stroke, it forces my motions to become stronger, more deliberate, and more consistent by virtue of those things. It actually helps with the “anchoring” issue I mentioned earlier–the rest stroke gives my pick a more solid target to shoot for. As an added bonus, I think my tone is stronger and better due to the increased force of my pick strokes. Cool.
C) Chunking. This one is obvious and not a new revelation for me, but 4-note chunking will be what saves my ass in the focus and consistency department.
I’m basically trying to re-program my DNA by working on this stuff. It’s emotionally exhausting for me but I kinda like it.
I might understand what you are talking about. As I have been trying this DWPS technique I noticed that my picking hand will literally go in tiny circles as I hit the strings. It seems to work out better for me. One day I’ll upload a video if I find the time.
Just wondering about something after rewatching the Teemu interview- if someone isn’t a very good UWPS, why would Teemu prefer they switch to DWPS instead of trying to make their UWPS better? Is there something about restarting with a new technique that is easier than trying to clean up a players UWPS technique?
Not sure which part you’re referring to, but I did ask him in the interview why he would want someone to switch pickslants. He indicated that it’s because they might want to start certain phrases on a downstroke, like pentatonic phrases, and that simply wouldn’t work without dwps.
Yes, you can do those lines on an upstroke but a lot of times in rock / metal pentatonic lines are played on the downbeat and a lot of players like doing downstrokes on downbeats. I didn’t ask him to explain further but I assumed this is what he was getting at, i.e. these players preferred to start on a downstroke and that is what required the switch.
Thanks again Troy. So it’s the downbeat thing is where he is coming from!
Another factor is that he knows DWPS and the rotational mechanic and that’s what he can teach best.
If a student doesn’t have a technique they’re proficient with, then they’re likely to make better progress in the long run by taking a temporary hit in abilities (as they switch to the new mechanic) in exchange for better tutelage.
This really depends on what you mean by “proficient”. We hve piles of emails from viewers who thought they weren’t any good at picking technique, who then watched our stuff and realized they were just upward pickslanters trying to play downard slanting lines, or vice versa. Probably a lot of people on this forum fit that description. In such cases, there might not need to by any change to their form at all, or only minor changes, beyond simply understanding how to use the form they already have.
Well, first of all I didn’t watch Teemu interview. Second…
funny thing: I tried downward pickslanting and still try it, though it doesn’t help. It even makes everything worse, playing becomes difficult. As I found out chaging the angle of plectrum doesn’t change my trajectory. Which means I still make movements in plane that is almost parallel to guitar plane. But now, when my plectrum has an angle, it’s almost impossible to get good upstroke, (unless you use large angle of “edge picking” and you pick the string with the very tip of plectrum and your movement is short and many many other conditions). I tried to focus on making movements like “in guitar”-“out guitar” but it feels so unnatural and as I try to play something more complex than two notes I get back to my parallel movement regardless of pickslanting.
As I noticed I tend to use upward pickslanting on 6th string and no slanting on other. Now I remember that when I just started to… hmm… make sounds on guitar I decided that plectrum should be perpendicular to strings (though I don’t know why I did) so I spent much time teaching myself to use it like this.
P.S. Sorry for my english
I have a similar hand technique whare i place all 4 fingers on the pick guards of my guitars, when playing them.
I find I am able to smoothly execute the ascending EJ fives using UWPS, but struggle with the descending version using DWPS. I also have a history that seems to be more UWPS and 3-NPS economy picking as my base. I am planning on watching the whole Teemu interview tomorrow on my day off.