Downward Pickslanting Troubles and the Teemu interview

[Troy]

One thing we did wrong back in the day - among many, many things of course - is underestimate the difficulty of doing this. If you’ve already been playing this way, becoming more conscious of it is a quick and often immedaite process. After all, we’re just pointing out what you’re already doing. This was true in my case.

But over the past couple years, I’ve sat down with players who grew up with uwps orientations, and the entire setup that dwps requires is weird for them. Helping players reconfigure their brains on this topic is one of the things Teemu does incredibly well in his teaching, and which we talk about in the interview.

SO… for those with dwps troubles, have you:

1. Watched the Teemu interview, and has it helped?
2. If not, what’s still not working and/or what didn’t he cover that we can help source more information on?

[Prlgmnr]

I for whatever reason just find UWPS more comfortable and tend to fall back into it.

Certainly the first time I had a real massive AHAH! moment with Cracking the Code was the Strunz and Farah interview, I basically had a sudden moment of “Oh, I can do this now”, just blazing across the fretboard. This is after 15 years of playing.

I really, really struggle with the Eric Johnson DWPS pentatonic stuff, but can do similar things fairly well with UWPS (I feel like you don’t get such a strong attack, however). I think it’s something to do with string tracking but I haven’t worked out how best to work on it - if I do patterns that allow for 4 notes on a string to slow down the rate of string changes it seems to help.

I’m going to rewatch the Teemu interview with DWPS in mind and get back to you - the things I took away from it the first time were more about focusing on the sound coming out of the amp and how the technical approach might differ from this (his sweeping is super, super fluid and yet when he broke it down to just his right hand technique it was extremely rigid/controlled). That, and trying to get my metal rhythm playing as crisp and tight as his.

[tommo]

I also had similar problems with DWPS, particularly the string tracking (going from low to high strings). After >1y of experimenting (and watching the Teemu interview) I finally found a position that works for my hand: I let the pinky float around freely while the other two are resting on the guitar body, even grabbing the upper strings at times. Previously I kept also the pinky rested but it felt stiff and awkward… maybe because in my case it’s much shorter than the other fingers? Please excuse the terrible picture:

I also noticed Troy does something similar (just with better results than me ), and Jimmy Rosenberg does something even more extreme by keeping only the mid finger on the guitar body and the other two spread out. Instead Teemu gets great results by resting all three. So… maybe experimenting with all these options might help?

Obviously I’m not saying this is the only way to do it but it works for me as an “ex-UWPS”, I hope sharing the experience can help others. Ciao ciao!

[Judmeister]

The thing that has helped me actually is I was always use to UWPS and usually what from the high string and then lower string in the 3NPS type pattern you could also say it was inside picking but we all know its more then that i was actually training my wrist or forarm to rotate from inward to outward on the last piick stroke on the lower string. For the long time I couldn’t do the opposite but pushed through it and went from low to high with UWPS and this as we can say is out side picking but its also training your wrist to rotate outward on the last pick stroke on the higher string. So the premis hear is its 3 notes per string and odd number of notes. So I also like petatonics so I came up with patterns that do this like what you could call zig zag forms on two strings will give you the same picking workout. You can also make it so you play five notes on one string basically starting on first finger go up the string then down on the same string string. then on the outside picking pattern you start on the lower string go down on the same string then back up and you will have played five. Sorry for going off the rails again but the point here is to figure out the number of picked notes and try using different scale patterns to play them. Sometimes for easier thinking I resort to fingers 123 on the fretting hand and do a sort of chromatic approach until I know the picking hand thing then change fingers on the fret hand.

[Prlgmnr]

I had a sit down this morning and tried to pay some real close attention to what’s going on with my DWPS pentatonic troubles, and it seems that it’s actually a LEFT HAND problem for me. Why would switching from UWPS to DWPS make a difference to this? I’m not sure yet.

None the less, if I pick 2 strokes per string with my right hand but just finger 1 note per string I can function at speeds I’d be totally happy with, but the wheels fall off once I try and finger 2 notes per string at speed. Descending, this is. Ascending is fine.

One possibility is that any pentatonic practise I did in the Pre-Code years would probably have unconciously involved DWPS starting on a downstroke on the way up the scale, UWPS starting each string on an upstroke on the way back, so I could have this really ingrained and just need to break out of it.

[Judmeister]

Try this with your pentatonics play a single note and descend down four notes this should be easier. then going back up start a note lower from where the forth note ended and go back up. This should sound like 16 notes. So the way this works is that you are using UWPS on the way down but then have to use DWPS on the way up. Make sure to rotate your forarm somewhere around the ascending part so now the upstoke clears the strings then rotate back in to play the single dowstroke required on the top note. Hopefully this makes sense but you can isolate the DWPS this way and get it to blend better with UWPS me thinks.

[Hanky_Pooh]

The Teemu interview is awesome. I’ve used economy picking like Gambale for 25 years. The DWPS is making me practice alternate picking a lot more now.

My problems with DWPS like Teemu? The volume knobs are getting in the way. I guess this is why Paul Gilbert moved his to the tone hole area?

For the moment I’m alternate picking with the outside rocking motion because my big hand is hitting the trem bar and volume knob. And when not concentrating, I go back to economy picking muscle memory.
lol
-Hank

[Frylock]

The volume knobs are getting in the way.

My main guitar has the knobs well clear of the bridge pickup. When I play a Strat, I curl the pinky around the first knob, Yngwie style, but I also pick with more of an “open hand” than what you show in your picture.

[Hanky_Pooh]

My main guitar has the knobs well clear of the bridge pickup. When I play a Strat, I curl the pinky around the first knob, Yngwie style, but I also pick with more of an “open hand” than what you show in your picture.

Hey, what’s up, Fry? lol.
Yeah, I feel ya that the "looser hand’ and Yngwie anchoring keeps you free from the knobs. The tighter hand I showed is making me pick with hand/forearm movement instead of fingers. It’s helping me stay straight alternate picking when I need that. I find it keeps the picking tighter in the rhythm pocket that way. It’s kind of isolating out the economy picking muscles also. For me, there seems to be pros and cons to each technique.

This is how I usually pick. This is like Yngwie I think.

The thing is, I always economy pick is this position. With my fingers to where it looks like I’m knitting some fabric. There is less control over speed picking like this. And a little harder to stay in a 32nd note pocket… But, it’s comfortable, doesn’t hit knobs, natural feeling. But the trade off is a slight sloppier/looser speed picking… for me.

So I guess the thing to do is switch around the positions based on what you’re playing? I know everybody is different. I’m still going to economy pick mostly. But it’s good to be able to hammer straight alternate picking lines when you want.

Is there a hamburger on here? That would rule.
-Hank

[element0s]

DWPS is pretty uncomfortable for me. It feels very unnatural and I have trouble finding the sweet spot where I can pick with the downward slant while still being able to keep the strings muted with my picking hand where needed. I am pretty serious about anchoring my hand and/or arm while I play–I can’t do the free-floating EVH thing at all. Sounds like a dumpster fire. Also, the forearm rotation movement for DWPS is tricky for me. I can do it on down-picked metal riffs but the upstrokes feel awful.

The Teemu interview was very good indeed and I did have a few lightbulb moments while watching it. Nothing that’s completely flipped my playing around but some very helpful advice and some things that I’ve began using while teaching my own lessons.

[Troy]

If you’re sitting in a chair, and you place your hand on your lap with the fingers out, that’s pretty much exactly what my setup feels like - zero tension, and with the soft parts of the bridge-side of the picking hand contacting the strings. For a good real-world example of what this looks like, take a look at the following Talking the Code we did on swiping:

Swiping!

Picking up the guitar and orienting as you see in this clip should be comfortable first and foremost: forearm on the body, hand resting on the bridge, fingers out and loose, no tension anywhere in the structure. The arm is supporting its weight at the forearm / body contact point, so everything below that is pretty loose.

Note also that the forearm is not pressed up against the guitar body and hugging it the way a lot of upward pickslanters do, or the way Andy Wood tends to, for example. Instead, there’s a small amount of wrist flexion, so the forearm / wrist arrangement is curved, and forms a shallow bridge over the guitar’s body. When I’m playing with dwps, you could stick an iphone between my forearm and the guitar in the gap that’s there.

Can you do this, is it uncomfortable, and if so what about is uncomfortable?

Second, the pick grip I’m using is what I’ve termed ‘angle pad’ in our pick grip poll:

There’s room for variation here in terms of different grips, and they can all be made to work. But in the interest of replicating my setup entirely as an experiment, you can give this a shot and see how it affects your geometry. One of the most insightful things Teemu talks about in his interview is how pick grip affects the geometry by causing the pick to slant, allowing you to reach the strings more easily when you’ve got this lightly flexed forearm arc happening.

Try not to worry too much about moving the setup, or doing “forearm rotation” in any kind of explicit way. Just see if you can get these parts arranged like this in a way that feels comfortable.

[Hanky_Pooh]

What’s funny is I was complaining above about the volume knob being in the way when DWPS. And look where Teemu moved his volume knob on his two new guitars. LOL!

I’ll check out the info you gave in this post, Troy.
Goodnight everybody

[Prlgmnr]

If you’re sitting in a chair, and you place your hand on your lap with the fingers out, that’s pretty much exactly what my setup feels like - zero tension, and with the soft parts of the bridge-side of the picking hand contacting the strings.

Just tried this, and though my hand LOOKED pretty much exactly like it did before when actually playing, it really helped my DWPS feel more comfortable.

Almost as big a difference in hand relaxation as when I changed from… do you call it “pad-side”? To what you call “angle pad”

I love how a subtle cue can sometimes make a big difference.

[Frylock]

@Hanky_Pooh

Is there a hamburger on here? That would rule.

Not yet, but duly noted.

[element0s]

Thanks for the detailed breakdown. I suppose my first statement wasn’t totally accurate–the hand/arm positioning for DWPS itself is very relaxed and comfortable. It’s the most natural way I could use my arm to play guitar. When I air guitar, it’s the position that I assume. However when it comes to the actual picking motion, I can’t seem to achieve DWPS with any degree of speed or accuracy. Downstrokes are OK (on the thicker strings for riffing) but upstrokes and alternate-picking doesn’t seem to fly. It’s really frustrating, and it’s not like I haven’t spent time working on it either.

I think I use UWPS because it let’s my arm hug the body of the guitar and anchor myself in a way where I feel like I have more control of the instrument. If I let my arm hang more loose when I try to play then I feel naked and completely out of control. This is probably a mental thing, I suppose.

[Frylock]

I think I use UWPS because it let’s my arm hug the body of the guitar and anchor myself in a way where I feel like I have more control of the instrument.

When I do DWPS, I don’t have as much of a “hug” compared to UWPS, but my forearm about 2 or 3 inches from the elbow is anchored very firmly against the edge of the guitar, and then there’s another “anchor point” near the picking hand (a finger against the guitar face or part of the palm or edge of the hand against the bridge, depending on what technique I’m working with). Usually the result is something that looks Yngwie-ish, with the ring finger and/or middle finger against the pickguard area. Some lengths of letting the guitar hang low on the strap might not be conducive to this.

[Hanky_Pooh]

WOW, so Batio and Gilbert have always swiped when needed to stay alternate picking?

If I stay DWPS, I either have to pick economy, or swipe every once in awhile if strictly alternate.

I was always under the impression Gilbert and Batio somehow got over the strings with rocking or something…

The reason I economy pick is because I always avoided swiping, thinking it was a bad habit.

[Hanky_Pooh]

https://troygrady.com/channels/talking-the-code/swiping/

Oh, ok! I got ya. So you constantly swivel between UWPS and DWPS when alt picking… The swipes just happen sometimes lightly?

[Troy]

Or not so lightly! I tend to swipe on ascending outside string changes, which means a downstroke going to a higher string will hit that higher string on the way over. And it’s mainly on the lower and middle strings, not on the higher ones. This is simply a result of my hand position, and muting tendencies. So for example on descending scale playing you won’t see it, because that ascending downstroke string change simply doesn’t occur.

If you watch the Teemu interview, you’ll see similar tendencies - you can see the swipes happening, but mostly not hear them. He and I have very similar techniques and sounds when it comes to scale playing.

[Hanky_Pooh]

LOL, ok, I’m going to pay attention to hidden swipes. I know exactly what you were talking about in the intense Rock 2 video. You can hear that swiped note because Paul had a real Spanky clean sound. He had the volume rolled way off.