DSX despite DWPS. Actually most real world players?

Playing Technique
#1

Hello there. My name is Moritz and I have introduced myself a minute ago in the forum.

As a natural USX player with some sort of DWPS.

Because of this conquering the DSX, my weakness, is my current obsession.

My biggest technical influences are John Petrucci and Andy James which both play with similar Arm Positions and Pick Grips. (Supinated arm Position- Petrucci more than Andy, both hard or soft anchoring the pinky on the guitar body, or under the treble strings or bridge pickups. Again Petrucci doing it more than Andy. Both leading edge players…)

although to me it seems that Petrucci, who’s actual technology is still a mystery and debated in the forum is more of a USX player, with some sort of secondary escape motion doing some DBX and DSX

And Andy is thought to be a DSX player. At least he seems to since circa 2013-2015 where he discovered that he likes to play even numbered notes per string phrases starting with an upstroke to escape on a downstroke (although consciously understanding the escape mechanics)

I can find absolutely no evidence of Andy ever incorporating and upward pickslanting but to me it seems that either his pick is flat from the Y axis but with edge picking or it’s even downward slanted.

Now as far as I understand that is not really recommended because of the supposed garage spikes problem but I see Andy Wood and even Tommo in the DSX Rock Seminar often having a very slight downward slant to the pick despite this theoretically seeming to be a „mismatch“

Now my question is: Am I wrong in visually assessing their actual pick angles and there is more upward slant(or at least 0° slant) than it seems or is playing DSX with a downward slant much less of a problem than it seems especially with some edge picking and a beveled pick such as the flow.

#2

All of this is of major interest to me because I can do DSX and upward pickslanting - especially with a 9-3 motion and pronating my arm, but my natural playing setup is supinated and I want to stay and that position and not constantly having to flip around my arm and readjust my muting

#3

Welcome to the forum :slight_smile:

I think the best course of action for this type of question is always to post a technique critique!

#4

Seconded. I’ve had very, very good experiences with the Flow. Something about the shape of it makes pick attack feel extremely smooth. Perhaps it’s cheating, since it seems that you can get away with not-quite-perfect pickslant, but if it sounds good it is good!

Now I just need to get some Flow picks that aren’t chirpy-AF 1.5mm Tortex :laughing:

#5

Thank you for your reply tommo. I will definitely post a technique critique video soon.

But for now my question is more of a general principle question, rather than what should I do.

One, that I hope to get answered by cracking the code mods or members that have taken more time analyzing the style and mechanics of these players.

#6

Cheating is only problematic in romantic relationships. When it comes to guitar playing, if it makes me play better, I’m gonna do it lol! Even if it makes me think I play better, I’m gonna do it. I guess that’s one and the same since I am my sole audience member.

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#7

even the gypsy jazz pro’s do it. here is mozes rosenberg doing it during the pedal point phrase during his cover of badinerie. here he is maintaining the wrist turn key rotation and just swiping through the string to catch the 1 note per string occurance on the upstroke to get back to the string in one smooth motion to conserve the motion and maintain speed.

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#8

This guy is not doing any downstroke escapes.

So again my only real question I am trying to get answered. Is DSX playing possible with a Downward Pickslant and do we have good examples of players having managed this?

And is Andy James such a guy?

#9

I think what your describing is what Nuno does, if I recall correctly Andy James has a slight upward pickslant and Petrucci is more neutral :slightly_smiling_face:

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#10

I’ve followed Andy for a long time, since at least 2008, and I don’t think he has a downward pickslant at all. Neutral-ish, perhaps, but his thumb always looks pretty close to the strings.

Here’s an old vid, back before he decided to do all DSX (edit: meaning started avoiding all the trouble spots), but the technique is generally the same as it is now.

#11

At least on these videos which are in 4k and there are sometimes good with a good side perspective showing us his picking hand from the inside.

To me it seems his pick must be slightly downward slanted

#12

I know without a magnet perspective can be deceiving but even on this vid it seems the pick that we can barely see must be downward slanted

#13

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Here is some screenshot I made of the videos

#14

I’m still not seeing downward pickslanting, it’s pretty neutral. Now, he’s definitely using a good amount of leading edgepicking, just in case some terminology is getting mixed up.

#15

The third still here is the one that looks closest to DWPS, but that also doesn’t look like the general form he usually uses when alternate picking. Compare it to the hand and forearm orientations in the other two stills.

#16

That’s what I’m seeing too. Pretty neutral slant, but some leading-tilt edge picking. Troy refers to players like him as “lightly” supinated. His thumb seems to be right against the strings and that makes a downward slant hard, at least for me (I know this stuff can get nuanced with different players due to anatomy)

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#17

It’s possible. Here, I made a video of me doing it (obviously I need to up my lighting game). Lick is 4 notes across 2 strings starting on a downstroke, 2nps which starts 1 note on the high string, then 2 notes on the lower string, then 1 more more on the high string. Looks like I’m swiping the high string as I return to it about 2/3 or 3/4 of the time but I think I played it clean at least a couple times here. My DWPS is only like 10 degrees here, any more slant and it gets more swipey. I’m opposite of OP, long time DSX player learning USX. I don’t normally play continuous DSX with a DWPS, I just made the video to show it’s possible. But when I’m playing lines that are mostly USX I do use that slight DWPS for DSX, or maybe a neutral slant, ; the DSX is effortless for me but USX takes concentration so a pick slant that favors USX seems to help me on lines that call for both escapes.

2NPSDSXDWPS

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