DUD(R) / UDU(R) Scale playing

Technique Critique
#1

Hello ! @Troy
I am training Myself Two way pick slanting scale playing about a month … I posted this video Because Now i can play with this technique but i am very confused that my movement is not look like TWPS …i filmed myself 2 times before this , still now i can’t say that yes its TWPS or that cracking the code stuff . Also m i making string-hopping ? well my Goal is playing crazy Muted stuff like Nuno With the feeling of Conquering the Scale video scale stuffs. Still Fighting With the Strings Dont know why ! Please Help me out that am i doing it wrong way ! if i did , then suggest me what is my problem , if i am doing it right how can i improve my Sound …Want more clear Sound. Hope you guys will understand this. Waiting for your feedback . Thank you ! @Troy :slight_smile:

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#2

So I’m having a hard time getting a read on the pickstrokes and which notes they’re corresponding to here, so take this with a giant grain of salt, but to me this looks more like DWPS economy picking with escaped upstrokes and swept downstrokes.

You seem to be doing some sort of 3nps pattern here, and starting at 0:23 or so where you slow it down, and then further slowing it down to 75% on Youtube, I’m seeing very few if any string changes where you move to the new string with an upstroke. You seem to be consistently starting with downstrokes, at least at the start of your first run and then the second run after a pause at the very end. I’m not getting a good read on if you’re accomplishing that with an “escape hatch” ghost pull off in there or just sweeping from string to string, but it looks more like the latter than the former.

If I’m right, then remember that there’s nothing at all wrong with this - it certainly doesn’t slow Yngwie down any - and it may be worth really honing in on that approach and intentionally building lines and licks that rely on swept string changes when moving from a lower to higher string and dropping in a legato note when moving in the other direction.

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#3

I can do Economy Picking like yngwie sweeping on ascending time and legato/pull off on descending time… But in this video actually I am Doing Just normal 3nps scale Alternate picking starting with Down stroke then up then down (Rotate) … But i m Confusing when I play this up to speed that WHAT THE HELL I M DOING ! :smiley: … Thank you for your time :slight_smile:

#4

You sure? Slow that WAY down, 25% or 50%, and watch that first run. To me, while your pick angle isn’t a perfect predictor, you’re definitely maintaining an orientation more typical for a DWPS approach, I’m not seeing any escaped downstrokes (they’re consistently moving with a downward slashing movement, down towards the pickups, while your upstrokes pull away from the guitar), and it’s tough to say for sure but it looks like you’re starting each new string with a downstroke. If this was truly straight alternate picking then if your first string started with a downstroke, you would be moving to the second string with an upstroke, and it’s a little tough to tell for sure but it looks like you’re switching with a downstroke as well. You may be practicing this as a TWPS run at slower tempos, but at speed it looks like economy DWPS is taking over, near as I can tell. Ascending, at least, descending it looks like you may be getting a few escaped downstrokes i there after all.

I’d love to get a second opinion from someone with a better eye than me though. :slight_smile:

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#5

You may be practicing this as a TWPS run at slower tempos, but at speed it looks like economy DWPS is taking over, near as I can tell.

Ya I am Sure that I m doing alternate Picking 3nps , may be coz when i m doing it in medium tempo I am maintaining the Chunk D,U,D(R) then U,D,U(R) … but on fast tempo , it feels like smooth but I m confuse that m i maintaining the chunk now ! as well as i did on slow one ! that’s the problem actually… But , Your captured Information really helping me to find out my problems. thanks :slight_smile:
MAY BE WE NEED @Troy :smiley:

#6

To me it looks like alternate picking with a good foundation of 2 way movements in there. Really good work there! The problem seem to be that, as Drew mentioned, it looks like the downward escape doesn’t really clear the strings. And I also get the feeling that you use quite hard strokes (I might be fooled by the sound quality) which kind of makes the pick swipe through strings with a lot of force, making the whole thing a bit muddy. It’s sometimes hard to tell if you really hit each individual note of every string with equal attack and clarity.

How does it sound and feel just a tad slower? Do you feel a bit clearer what’s going on then?

Edit: Looking more at the slow versions it seems that some of the lack of clarity might be coming from lack of left hand synchronisation. Of course I can’t know what notes you intended to play, but I can hear double picked notes and places where notes that “should be there” is missing. It might be an indication that some of the chunks aren’t burned it just yet.

#8

I think you are right . Here is my another video , in this video I m using different pick Dunlop jazz 3 … and different Hand grip… i m using this grip about 15 yrs now . and also i m doing saaame thing what i did on my first video… Its just G major scale … I think on first video Grip my hand rotating after D,U,(D) but for DWPS it was not rotating as much as it needs to.

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#9

Hi Jacob! Great tone here. Love the Les Paul sound for heavy rock. What are you playing through?

Honestly this looks and sounds fine for now, and I wouldn’t worry too much about whether you’re doing the “rotation” correctly. Instead what I can’t really tell here is if the motion is smooth, fluid, and synchronized, so for that we need to use a simpler phrase. So what I’d like to hear if you get a moment is a take where you do a line across all the strings that uses only single-escape motion, either downstroke escape or upstroke escape. In other words, a “one-way pickslanting” line. Ideally, it would be best if you do this with no muting.

This is the easiest way to hear if you are really getting it smooth, and if the hands are totally synchronized with no repeated notes or missed notes. And, honestly, clean tone is even better for this. Dirty tone is great for learning noise control, harmonics, muting, etc. You need to do both clean and dirty practice, eventually. But for learning motions in the beginning, clean tone will tell you if the motion is smooth, and all the notes are being hit with the same force. Because clean tone is less compressed, make sure the amp is loud enough to be (mostly) louder than the acoustic pick attack - this makes it easier to hear on camera.

The goal here is for the motion to be fast, feel easy, and for your form to look as similar as possible on all the strings. You may already be able to do this, if so great. But put up a clip when you get a moment and we’ll go from there.

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#10

Here it is troy !
ok I will practice on Clean tone , I got the click now in this video but about the click my question is Once i got this Then What should i do to keep the click in same level as like when i Got it first ? And i played just simple G major scale 3nps with (Downward Pick slanting) , Because i didn’t learn any upward pick slanting phrases yet . Actually I am really trying to learn every methods of your Cracking the code to Get mastery on Two way pick slanting on 3nps type playing as much as speedy i can . I saw your Conquering the scale video on youtube then I said thats the sound i want to go for … When you were learning 2wps on scale how long did it take you to actually get it working and up to speed? @Troy

#11

This sounds really good! But this is not “one-way pickslanting”, and in the classic one-way-pickslanting type of picking motion, you can’t play a scale in a straight line. You can only play even numbers of notes per string, because the pick only moves in a particular way. And as I do often around here, I apologize because we have not been very clear on what “pickslanting” means - does it mean how you hold the pick, or how you move it? In your case, you may see a “slant” in the way you are holding the pick, but you are not using the typical “downward pickslanting” motion where only the upstrokes escape the strings.

Which is fine! This sounds good so I wouldn’t worry too much about the terminology or which motion you are making. Just continue to focus on the end product, which is smoothness first, and then accuracy. This sounds smoother and more synchronized that then previous attempt so nice work here. If you find that you can’t reproduce this form the next time you pick up the guitar, that’s ok. You will eventually get it again. Over time, you will get it more often until you can do it every time. That is the “long tail” of motor learning.

Nice work.

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#12

Oh no ! So how can i get that two way pick slanting motion for sacler approach Troy ! I thought after a month i m doing right ! :frowning: @Troy

#13

m i doing it right or wrong ? in my opinion i am doing D,U,D® / U,D,U® things 2wps , where pick rotate SLANT on 3rd note of the scale ? Need your Opinion @Troy

#14

This also sounds good! But you don’t need to make changes in your arm position. In this clip, you are switching between two arm positions, a very supinated one and a less supinated one. The less supinated one is fine — you can just use that one all the time.

Again, try not to get confused by the way we have explained this in the past. It’s our fault and we were not clear, because we were still learning about all the ways players do this. You don’t need to “change the slant”. You just need to change the way the pick is moving so that it escapes on the upstroke, and then escapes on the downstroke. You can do all of this from one arm position, and with a pickslant that looks almost exactly the same. Here’s an example of what that looks like which we just posted today:

When you switch between these two motions, you may need to make very small adjustments to your arm position or grip to make the pick attack feel smooth. But those adjustments are very small. You do not need to change your entire arm position from one type of forearm setup to another. You are just changing your wrist motion from one motion to another, like in the Instagram clip.

But again, I wouldn’t worry about this. You are already doing it. The faster clip you posted looks good because it’s smooth and does not involve huge changes in your arm position or grip. The changes are so small you almost can’t see them. That is the way it looks when done correctly.

Just worry about smoothness first and accuracy after that, and you’ll be fine. You’re doing great already.

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#15

Thank you troy !
You are doing Great too… You helped me a lot when i m learning this kind of technical things and still… Thanks :slight_smile:

#16

Only somewhat related, but I tend to do my 2WPS style playing as a sort of half-crosspicking.

I use the classic DWPS position - supinated forearm and wrist movement with the majority of my pickstrokes being upward escape rest-strokes. But when I need to change a string on a downstroke, rather than rotating, I’ll use a double-escaped pickstroke with wrist extension to clear the string and then I’ll flex so that I’m back into the old single-escaped DWPS position for the rest of the scale.

I developed a trick like this back when I was trying to look into gypsy picking but also still do some bluegrass stuff - all very amateur, of course, but it was something I was experimenting with (this is prior to my discovering of CTC, too). I prefer it to normal 2WPS because it’s much easier for me to remember - if I’m changing strings after a downstroke, I use a double escaped pickstroke. Easy.

I do wonder whether this might have a slower theoretical top speed than MAB style 2WPS, but really it works well for me and is comfortable and can easily adapt into solely double escape pickstrokes if I want to do some alternate picking runs.