DWPS USX vs whatever the heck

Technique Critique
#21

Okay. Making some headway. I guess all it takes is a shift in attitude and the willingness to separate one’s self from 40 years of guitar magazine “bad advice”. A big thanks to everyone here, I feel like a major lunge forward has been made by me, and only because I decided to take the advice, and try it. The entire time I am doing my “rearrangements” there’s this little voice saying “But… that can’t work…”

I’m assuming that all of the “rules” pertaining to what an elbow player can and cannot do is (What IS and IS NOT easily executed via. this motion) contained in the picking primer? I think that I need to have a VERY clear understanding of exactly what my “grammar rules are” so that I don’t waste time working on something that will never come to fruition…

#22

Economy picking is exactly what I am working on right now, also with Elbow motion.
Uwps mode is cool, you can dsx to a higher or lower string and sweep to a lower string.
But what happens when you are dragged into the upside down? To sweep to the next higher string you have to switch to at least some dwps or else you will have way to much resistance, but what does that do to elbow alternate picking? In my experience you can’t escape after the upstroke anymore, it pretty much crashes into the next higher string (which it should to enable the sweep). To get the full Gambale style, you have to be able to get the usx somehow. So we have to find an efficient addition to the elbow motion that allows for an upstroke escape while being in dwps.
If you don’t, you are restricted to ascending licks that only use an uneven number of notes per string.
I GUESS(!) the Vinnie Moore rotation that was mentioned a few times in my thread could work, even though afaik, he pretty much stays in a uwps for the most part whereas for economy picking to work, you really have to get into dwps.

#23

I don’t know… I am muddling my way through this with some new information hahaha But I am feeling awfully good about these last two days! Taking the advice that’s given, that’s the key I guess.

On paper, “Economy Picking” is an awesome solution to all of my picking woes. But… For some reason, I could never get the ascending stuff that wasn’t a 1nps sweep to work (Wall at about 140 bpm), and I couldn’t figure out why. My solution? More practice. More time with a metronome. Fast forward 3 decades and here I am, STILL not able to do it. So something HAD to be changed.

In my case it’s the realization that I am a)working against myself and b) in need of simply understanding how what I can do works.

For example, I remember always being told that I played “wrong” or “Backwards” and in regards to playing an “ascending scale run” I was under the impression that I needed to either play it alternate picked starting with an upstroke, or “sweep” it a la the Gambale Speed Picking book; neither of which really work with my particular picking mechanic as far as I know and believe at this moment.

I realized that I don’t need to economy pick a 3nps ascending scale, because with my picking mechanic, a “pick-pick hammer” technique is extremely effective, when I start on an upstroke. if I start on a downstroke OR an upstroke, I found that I can alternate pick everything, but I have to sort of “Blast” through the strings, and although not horrible, it’s not as clean. Maybe that’s a “Swipe”? And as I analyze it, there is a bit of a “stringhop” when I do that, so it definitely has a speed barrier. Anyways, the other way that really works out great is to play the scale as a 4nps pattern. Although it requires a bit of a stretch and some modified geometry, it works really well.

OK, Back to practice and more analyzing. And modifying/correcting what I already do.

#24

hmmm Also seeing success with a 3nps scale starting with a downstroke, going pick pick pick and then next string pick pick hammer. DUD UDhammer Feels weird, but it seems to work, that hammer “buys time”…

#25

I just rewatched Pickslant Nightmare 2 and the problem with your ascending run is pretty obvious to me. Just look at the very first note, can you see how you don’t really hit the a string because you are still escaping with your upstrokes? When you then go for the transition after the 3 note, it seems like you have to push your pick back in between the strings because you are still escaping.

You mentioned sweeping, so can you do standard sweeps from the elbow in the ascending direction? You want to replicate that exact motion in your economy picking. The best way to get this in my opinion is to mak sure that you are rest-stroking, so simply make sure that every downstroke properly touches the A string (at a certain tempo that obviously doesn’t have to happen with every down but it’s a good way to prepare yourself for the sweep transition).

#26

You could also try to simplify the ascending economy scale. It is basically just a 3 note chunk:
D(sweep)-D-U
sequenced over the strings in an ascending direction. So you could try and just practice this single chunk as a repeating pattern, to see if you can get a motion going fast and fluent. That actually helped me a lot!
Something like this:

     d d u d d u

3rd-----------4-5—4-5- …etc.
4th--------7------7-------

And I wouldn’t worry about “doing rotation” or wrist, rather focus on being lose, and as @Maximal said, make sure that the first downstroke is always a reststroke.

EDIT: Brad Davis actually says, that is even more important to make sure that the second downstroke is a rest stroke as well…:grin:

#27

Hey guys - again, thanks for your input, it’s really helpful.

Yes; I can play a “regular sweep”. It’s when there’s extra notes-per-string thrown in that it seems to fall apart, Stuff like Tumeni Notes or Demon Driver is no problem.

I was under the impression that an Elbow driven pick motion for an ascending economy picked idea was one of those things that isn’t going to work so well? In my video I played this; and I used a DUDDUDetc economy pick motion, but it seems to really gravitate towards a 16thnote triplet, kind of a gallop rhythm and when I try to straighten it out to straight 16ths rhythmically it seems like a lot of effort to control.

Part of that could be that I noticed that when I descend (Which is a lot better in comparison) my picking seems to flow from string to string in a diagonal direction, ummm volume knob to top body horn -ish. It’s subtle, but it’s there. Now when I ascend, I have this really bizarre bridge pickup to bottom horn direction, and it’s pretty wide. Not sure if that’s part of the problem, but maybe I’ll try to correct it to go in “reverse” of my descending direction. So When descending, I’ll try to get it to go top horn to volume knob-ish and see if that has any impact.

Any Elbow picking mechanic guys out there that I could see doing an economy picked run like that?

-------------------------------------------------------------------7–8--10---------
-----------------------------------------------------6–8--10-----------------------
---------------------------------------5–7--9--------------------------------------
--------------------------5–7--9---------------------------------------------------
-------------5–7--8----------------------------------------------------------------
-5–7--8---------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is another one that kicks my butt…

---------------------------------------------------------7–5--------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------5–7--8--------------8–7--5-------------------------------------
-------------------------------------5-----------------------------------------5--------------------------------
------------------------5–7--9------------------------------------------------------9–7--5-----------------
-----------------7-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------7----------
----5–7--8---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------8–7--

NOTE: I made the change, and speed and smoothness has improved, but I don’t have much rhythmic control… Is that normal? I mean, obviously the accent is going to be easiest on the string changes and that would definitely be a triplet f some sort and playing straight 16ths, the accent cycles through the run… Any suggestions? Also, there is still a lot of feeling like the pick is getting ‘caught’ on the strings which probably does mean that I am possibly string hopping a bit… Should I supply video?

#28

I am figuring this picking thing out, thanks so much to everyone who has provided any information or discussion on this topic. I take everything you guys say seriously, and I will give anything a try especially if I can figure out a way to work with my elbow picking mechanic and the set of rules that it seems to dictate…

Okay this video is a bit longer, but I think maybe it maybe provides a broader perspective of “an Elbow picker’s dilemma”. The video kind of goes through a variety of things that I think are relevant that I think might really help some folks define this picking style a bit better… Any input and feedback is welcome.
Sorry about the crap playing, but I chose to videotape myself trying to figure stuff out so no warmup, lol this WAS the warmup hahaha No polish but it conveys the idea I think. It is what it is.

Some questions;

  1. On an “even notes per string” sequence, I start on a downstroke, and it ends on an upstroke. I feel I can easily change strings but doesn’t that violate the rule of “gotta end on a downstroke”? Perhaps then it’s simply that “even notes per string” sequences are the exception to that rule for elbow pickers?

  2. Ascending 3-note-per string scales; I don’t think it’s really possible to “economy pick” those (or anything else, really) with an elbow driven picking mechanic. I feel that if I want to be successful at that method of picking, I will need to utilize a USX motion - and I noticed from watching my video that when I am most successful at an ascending sweep it’s because I have changed to a wrist motion. Then again, that’s just how it feels.

  3. I feel like ascending 4’s will just not be possible with an elbow picking mechanic, at least not with that note arrangement. I am thinking that if I want to use “Elbow” for that I need to change the notes per string to suit the mechanic, just like a lot of things it seems…

#29

The video is a bit too long for me to watch right now, but I’ll try to answer you questions!

No, it still holds, but you have to start on an upstroke. This is true for any DSX motion, not just elbow.

Yes, you’re right. Sweeping with a DSX motion only works descending. To be able to sweep ascending you need to have a downward slant. Everything is “upside down” compared to USX. With a USX motion, you can play 3nps scales by sweeping the ascending string changes and by playing two notes and pull off the last when descending, starting with a downstroke. With DSX, it’s the other way around! And: you need to start on an upstroke.

So, your first lick that you’ve tabbed in the comment above would need to be played U D H (H = hammer on), but you could sweep it descending.

The second lick (3 + 1 nps) needs 2WPS and would not be playable with a strict single escape motion, be it USX or DSX.

No, probably not. But then again, (diatonic?) fours are not playable across several strings with a single escape motion anyway, as far as I know.

#30

I know you guys don’t like too much video in a thread, but I felt that it really, really presents a broader picture of what’s going on with a variety of things that I want to clean up in my playing.

Well, I can do good 'ole 1-2-3-4 starting on a downstroke pretty quick. Same with 6’s starting on a downstroke, and that’s with a rounded pick after a day of some pretty serious yard work.
I am trying it today, as I type this and 1-2-3-4’s at 250bpm (16ths) with a downstroke or an upstroke…
A jazz iii and a bit of practice on it has cleaned it up substantially. The 6’s I can play as sextuplets at about 140bpm, although I honestly don’t really care how fast it can go - that’s plenty fast for what I need.

So either there’s an “even notes per string” exception or I am doing something weird that changes the “rule” parameters. I do feel a weird kind of “flex” (in my shoulder) when I string change on this, but I don’t know what affect that might have on it. What do I do to figure this out?

As for the other stuff, pretty spot on advice that seems to be working out. Before I start messing with learning another picking mechanic that gives me a USX I will work with my existing one and see what I can do to make the sounds I want possible… I have a lot of creative solutions in the works knowing what I know now, but I really want to make sure that I have a VERY clear understanding of what IS and IS NOT possible given my picking mechanic.

Thanks again for any input or feedback you might have on this topic.

#31

Caught myself on 6’s - and 1-2-3-4’s doing a string hop on every string change. It’s subtle, and kind of gets masked with string tracking, but the jump is there. The “Start on upstrokes end on downstrokes for even notes per string” rule prevails. Much cleaner actually too.

Learning as I go.

UPDATE! The Plot thickens…I thought it was a string hop, but it’s not. I am actually changing my pick slant ever so slightly, and combined with a bit of edge-picking, I “believe” that’s what is making being able to play normally USX stuff possible. I simply wasn’t aware of it, and that’s making it probably quite inconsistent… More R&D to be done.

#33

I prefer: “switch strings after a downstroke” definition, since you may end a musical phrase with any pickstroke you want if you are not going to move to the next string with alternate picking.

Before CtC when I used elbow movement mostly I did sweeping both ways. So, it’s possible.