Economy Crosspicking?

Technique Critique
#1

Hi Code-Crackers!

I’ve been working my way through videos on the site for a few months and have improved a lot at economy picking (or what some would call “directional picking”) now that I understand the concept of two-way pickslanting.

One thing that still eludes me is how to handle string skipping with this approach. I’ve been working on learning a Bach violin partita and getting a bit stuck on this part:

The first four measures work fine using the following strings and pick motions: B-down, E-down, B-up, G-up. But it gets tricky once the G-string notes move to the D-string and my motion starts to feel very string hoppy.

Any recommendations for a more efficient way to handle this? I know it’s possible to alternate pick all of this using an Andy Wood or Molly Tuttle type crosspicking motion, but I’m hesitant to try to learn a whole new approach to picking just to play this passage.

Thanks to Troy and the gang for all the work you’re doing!
-Mike

#2

i would say utilize swybrid and middle finger plucks if you need to get it done in a pinch for live playing purposes. and then work on doing it picked if you want to drive yourself crazy trying to perfect it. i am unable to see the video its private, but i know about string skipping.

what do you mean by stuck? it sounded great to me… :stuck_out_tongue:

try to swing rhythm it for a day or two and see if that lets your hands learn the motions better when you go back to regular rhythm. let your hands feel a groove, and get coordinated.

you could use fingers, tuck the pick into the index finger grasping it pointy end poking into the flesh of the tip of the finger, and use middle ring pinky and thumb

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#3

Oops, video should be fixed now!

Yeah, the first person I saw play this was Rick Graham, who hybrid picks the whole thing:

That would definitely be easier (in theory–I’m not great with hybrid picking), but I like the sound of picked notes better, and it really is more of an exercise than something I’m actually likely to perform. I’d be pretty happy if I could get it 10% faster with better consistency (this was one of many takes). I like the swing practice idea–I’ll give that a try!

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#4

I try and give a description of how it feels when I’m trying string skipped crosspicking in this thread - I think he’s doing what you’re trying to do

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#5

That’s some impressive string skipping, but it looks like he’s using all alternate picking.

I’m wondering how best to do string skips while using two-way economy picking. Is it possible to play two upstrokes (or downstrokes) in a row when skipping strings without string hopping, or am I better off in the long run learning to alternate pick this passage?

#6

It’s certainly physically possible to do, if you start with pronated forearm on the lower string, and rotate after picking down, and then hit the higher string on the way down, I’ve done that before. But I’m not certain it’s really that efficient. Plus now you’re trapped into having to do an upstroke to escape the strings anyway so it limits that motion if you’re have any intent of going low-high-low which won’t work unless you also wanna double pick the high string.

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#7

I see what you mean. I was practicing 2 note per string skips this way (i.e. D-up D-down B-down B-up…) and going from pronated on the low string to supinated on higher string makes a kind of rainbow curved shape that seems pretty efficient.

As you point out, this doesn’t quite work with the passage I was working on, since I end up playing an upstroke on the B string in a pronated position before trying to skip to the D string.

I think I’m convinced that alternating crosspicking would be the optimal way to play this, but I’ve been making some progress with my approach by trying to minimize string hopping between the B and E strings so my hand has time to recover before the one hop over the G string.

#8

Depending on what you’re playing, string hopping can work, but it’ll tire you out faster and be more prone to injury so I can’t really recommend trying to push it, make sure to pay attention to any hand/wrist/forearm pain.

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#9

did the swing trick help you get faster dexterity on the pattern? it seems to help my hands comprehend the motions for phrasing way faster doing this swing trick to learn new stuff. takes me about 1 to 2 days for it to really set it.

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#10

Yes, it’s definitely helping!

I’ve realized that while practicing at fast tempos often leads to sloppy playing, going slow can build habits that don’t scale at faster speeds. So, I’ve been trying to find practice techniques (like your swing idea) that combine fast bursts with slower notes, allowing the hand some time to rest between repetitions.

Some other things I’ve tried are playing 8th-16th-16th on each note (i.e. B-BB E-EE B-BB D-DD) or playing three triplets followed by a quarter note in different combinations (BEB D-- BEB D-- or EBD B-- EBD B-- , etc.).

Here’s where I’m at now (the bit I was asking about is at about 0:30)

It’s still not quite as fast as I’d like, but I’m getting more consistent!

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#11

You know, I don’t think I’ve seen many, if any? people play in this way using economy picking.

I remember trying myself a long time ago, to do fast chord arpeggiation with economy picking but ran into difficulties controlling timing.

This is clearly not an issue in your case though, timing and tone is sounding great. I think you’d be able to get this faster in time, but I’m not convinced that the way to improve two way economy picking is by simply pushing the speed.
It’s very easy to start rushing sweeps which is not what you want!

Although the two string inside picking patterns could be sped up by just trying to floor it and see if it’s working.

It’s a tricky one as again, I can’t recall seeing anyone use economy picking for this style of playing, but that’s not to say that you can’t. To me, it’s sounding really good so far

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#12

That was awesome!

I’m not sure if that motion is capable of going really fast (I also don’t know that it won’t though) but it works for this piece at that tempo.

I actually started playing this one a few weeks ago but I am only on the second page lol! I have been using pure crosspicking and utilizing this piece as a vehicle for bettering my DBX…but your performance reminds me that technique in and of itself isn’t the goal.

All those beautiful dissonances would come through more if I would just hybrid pick a few places here and there. That was my favorite thing about your arrangement (and back in my classical days, I always tried to do that with Bach as much as possible). Great work, and keep it up!

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#13

Thanks @joebegly!

I started out trying to learn the Rick Graham arrangement of this I shared above (but without the hybrid picking) a few months ago. I really liked some of the dissonances he gets by letting open strings ring in the first few measures and decided to try incorporating that into the whole piece. It definitely makes the left hand more difficult to not instinctively mute strings you’re not playing, but using open strings actually makes it easier to quickly jump to different positions on the neck.

I’d love to see how you’re approaching the passage I first shared. I think I’ve pretty strongly internalized the directional picking concept of “ascending string changes are always downstrokes and descending are always up”, but I want to be open to more efficient techniques.

#14

Exactly. There are so many great recordings of these Bach pieces out there and they have some of the beautiful dissonances in them (where convenient lol!). A good arrangement can carry a concept throughout the piece. But, as you’ve seen…that can make it sort of a nightmare to play. Keep it up though, it’s a really great start.

I’ll try to film that part you referenced in the beginning of your post. I’m using (mostly) the Williams fingering, but strict alternate picking. It’s actually the very phrase that made me think this would be a cool piece to learn for some DBX work

I’ll strap on the magnet and see if I can get a couple decent takes. It’s pretty hard once the string skips begin…

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#15

I checked out a couple of classical performances, but since they don’t have to worry about string skipping, the arrangements seem pretty difficult to do without hybrid picking.

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