Yeah, I think that might be a big part of the issue - excessive energy being expended. I kind of stumbled onto doing that rotation on the sweep string change and it seems to really help.
No hammer-ons in this instance, but I have other strategies for this that’s a mix of legato and picking, or legato and swybrid etc. Definitely want an “all picked” version, even if it’s an economy/sweep thing.
hmm Yeah, I am dense - I never thought of rotating a bit for the sweep, but if you think about it - it makes sense.
My theory;
I am pronated a fair amount so my downstroke really escapes. So much in fact that the downstroke “misses” often when I am doing a downstroke sweep. I have to find some way of hitting the string hence applied pressure or tension. The rotation puts the pick to the string. Similar issue with ascending lines, even if they use an upstroke sweep.
Upstroke sweep is just “there” and usually works by default because I will naturally put the pick under the string in my DSX form on an upstroke, and it’s just easier to do a very slight rotation on that pickstroke to turn it into a sweep as opposed to entrapping it. Checked under the magnet, and that is indeed what’s going on. Cool.
I guess one could say that in a way it’s “two way pick-slanting” but only at a pretty specific point?
Have you tried not having such an extreme (DSX) hand position? The way you describe it is likely more exaggerated than it really is I’m sure, but the way you do describe it seems like you have to force it to even be in that position and have that extreme trajectory in the first place. I tried recreating how you describe your DSX, and It’s hard for me to even rotate my hand enough towards the body, let alone comfortably, to even get that kind of extreme diagonal trajectory on the string.
Part of me sometimes wonders if some of this is a “thermal runaway” condition in your case where you are leaning too far into something (or a way of thinking for that matter) and thus making certain things harder for yourself than they might have been initially, where the “solution” may be creating a bigger problem than before - kind of leading into a sunk cost fallacy of sorts. I’ve heard you play great lines before in some of the music you posted, and you were able to spit out a slightly more complex sweep line right back to me after I posted it, so sometimes I kind of wonder if some of this is going on here.
Yep, I have tried pretty much everything. This is where I landed. I am aware that it looks really bad. It’s apparently a lot better than one of my other ways of playing which was an elbow type thing. hmmm Maybe I will share that so you can see how completely I have mastered being terrible at this! hahaha (Okay, so I did a video with some elbow and nope, not going back to that - although I can ummm “get by-ish” with that form, it’s a bit rough even when I have been practicing a lot)
Don’t laugh, but I am at a point where literally NOTHING really feels “right” in regards to picking. Nothing. Lots of stuff that works-ish but nothing that feels completely comfortable. It’s laughable really. The obvious solution is probably to simply not pick at this point. Buuuut I am stubborn so I will suffer with it.
I think so. I believe, my playing was probably not totally that bad to begin with and I have likely made things quite a bit worse by trying to solve things that maybe didn’t need to be solved. I don’t know. A better approach would have been to have maybe found ways to play the things I want to play with that original form, refine, optimize and polish it. Background tension was a big problem - Tom Gilroy really helped out with that.
I will tell you, it’s pretty rough to deal with everybody on the internet being able to instantly play with perfect flawless technique after two weeks with CTC and I’m here after 47 years standing confused… ugh
I think that to sum it up; I suck at picking. I may have actually proven that some people are incapable of it (me) hahaha I will still keep trying though, so that I can eventually level up to being the best “worst picker” in the world. hahaha So yeah, I am trying to take what IS successful for me at the moment and build on that. Even if it looks weird. If that makes sense…
Yeah, an ongoing project is to try to get “less” pronated and get to a more neutral point as far as hand position goes. A work in progress, very difficult to find a sweet spot as a change in position seems to really change a lot of what is successful at this point. Still, I suppose if what I have already sucks it couldn’t hurt to change it hahaha
What’s wrong with this?
In my opinion absolutely nothing! I think if you just calmed and lightened the stiffness of it a bit and worked a little more of the nuances in it wouldn’t be as tense. I don’t think you need to go as hard in places particularly the low strings, but I also don’t think there was a huge reason to abandon it. It also sounds like you are using a thinner pick too which can make it a little more challenging in some aspects.
If this is all about alternate picking, do you have a strict alternate picked phrase or sequence that you find vexing.
Aww thanks, man - too kind! I can’t remember the exact issue with it besides it being quite tense, but I think it might have been to do with trying to learn double escape, or two way pickslanting or whatever it is that the “real” guitarists use.
I know that it also doesn’t quite “look” the way your average wrist player plays so that raises some eyebrows I guess. It’s always there, ready to go so I suppose that’s the good news.
I agree with this. I think your elbow technique is really good. Pair it with DSX phrases and you’re set.
Out of curiosity, do you tend to change your entire technique if you come across a pattern you can’t play so well? Does your newer technique feel more comfortable than your elbow one?
Aww, dang it - thanks. I think that at the time I just didn’t understand the escapes and slants and stuff so I really didn’t know what to do with what I had. I suppose I could take a run at it now and see if I couldn’t relax some aspects and tidy it somewhat. I could probably apply the concepts I worked on with Tom Gilroy and maybe have another motion that works to mess with. I have this Jimmy Herring type thing that I do that gives me a slower DBX, so I might have to see if I can do a version of that with a pistol grip.
No. I am dense AF, and I will literally brute-force myself to death on something. Gotta be sure, absolutely sure it doesn’t work! lol I am really good at coming up with a “different” way to play a thing, my left hand is good enough that I can do some pretty tricky things to kind of make up for my picking deficiencies. That’s just it, though - I don’t WANT any picking deficiencies! hahaha
No, just less tense, and sounds less aggressive. It’s way more relaxed, and the muting is more subtle so I guess it’s just different. As I mess with it, yeah all my DSX stuff works perfectly with it.
Weird thing, both these forms seem to be just fine even if I don’t use them for a while. I was doing a fingers only thing for a bit, and then came back to picking when I hurt my finger (not playing guitar - it was a work thing!)
Ahhh well I guess I better go examine my life hahaha
To what end though? Is your goal to to sit and work on picking technique until you drop dead or to play and write music?
There are quite a few very famous “real” guitar players that don’t pick every note, or pick much at all in some cases, and I doubt they worry about it much.
Start thinking about getting from point a to point b in any which way you can, and don’t hyper fixate on how you get there. That’s the difference.
hehehe Well of course it’s to create music - and to be honest I have created a fair bit over the years. I’d just like a picking technique that’s a bit more reliable with less effort is all. I actually spend most of my practice time coming up with stuff I like the sound of, and then I try to ramp up the speed - not that everything has to be played fast - and hilarity ensues hahaha
Elbow technique is an awesome way to play – see Vinnie Moore. I would take that as far as you can; you’ll probably stop caring about other techniques as you build up a vocabulary.
lol I will get to work on that vocabulary, thanks!
Yeah, so I messed with my old elbow motion, went back and forth between that and my newer, more pronated wrist motion - and I have to say - the tendency for me to “apply pressure” with my picking hand, and the inability to control it is why I abandoned it. I know - the pronated thing I do looks super awkward I guess, but it feels substantially more relaxed. Besides, I can actually “turn on” elbow from this setup, so it’s available should I need it. I shouldn’t, DSX from wrist or DSX from elbow is still DSX.
Original question is kind of solved. Applying a small wrist rotation to the sweep got me where I needed to be! Thanks, everyone!
TLDR: your experiments work and I have proof. 
I think you are being too hard on yourself. Just to give you an example of how you are the opposite of bad, I have been able to improve my picking a LOT by following your videos and the principles of your technique. Your experience helped me get from zero to something and now I have a working picking baseline that makes me happy:
Also, from that baseline, I have adjusted my technique to become a mix of DT and some elbow (which is a mix of motions that many pros use at fast speeds anyway so it’s nothing new), and I’ve recently found a way to make my posture less pronated by touching the bridge with the heel of my pinky just a little bit. It’s more of a reference point than an anchor but it makes me feel in control without relying entirely on my thumb to stay in balance.
@steve506 Oh wow! That sounds great, man! Well done - and thanks for the kind words! Always learning, always researching…
Apologies I’d forgotten to respond.
If comfortable with your newer pronated form then no change needed there. Always got the elbow motion there if needed but seems unnecessary now.
As for the economy picking, I’m not sure adding in a forearm twist would work beyond this example. Often the biggest issues you hear people have with economy picking is controlling the timing.
For me, I’ve found that slower practice is more beneficial and actually does help with faster playing. There is more time between strokes so it can be harder to not rush the sweeps at slower speeds.
I’d say it would be more useful to practice these examples slower and without adding in another joint motion. I’m no expert, but it’s just something I’ve felt has been most beneficial to my economy picking.
Oh, thanks so much for your response!
Yeah, actually I took stock of what I can do and I can jump into elbow pretty easily from my current pronated setup with trailing edge grip. Tempos are similar, just one way is much more aggressive with the capability to mute, the other is quite a bit lighter. So I guess that solves the need for super muted fast DSX stuff. The pronated setup also leads into a weird kind of DBX that I can do, kind of Herring-ish and not super duper fast, but pretty quick and highly useful for solving garagespikes issues, even if it’s just for one pickstroke. Also, for me background tension is tough to avoid so it’s kind of an “everyday” thing to program it out of myself. A definite challenge to maintain a balance in regards to tension, that’s for sure!
My playing strategy in regards to picking is looking like this; Alternate pick for even nps, add a hack (hammer/pull, sweep, hybrid or even swipe) for those problematic, unavoidable string changes. Wherever possible I change the LH fingering to suit an even number of notes type picking just for efficiency. And in all honesty, the more notes I can get on one string the better…
It’s just that for me, some moves, with accents in some places feel like they need something different to cross the string with better control. At the end of the day, I just want better quality notes in my musical ideas, so if it’s a mix of a bunch of stuff to be successful, so be it. I guess that sometimes the hard way is the easy way!
Getting sorted lol
Well if they’re going from one string to the next, I’m not sure what to say. But let’s say that they’re jumping by three strings. How can they do this without some type of escape motion? Isn’t it a requirement? (Or am I not grasping the question?)
Sorry for the late reply on this – if nobody has mentioned it yet, I think you’ll find a lot of relevant info for this discussion in this (free!) set of YT lessons on Gambale’s picking. Linking video No. 1 as it should be easy to find the others directly on YT.
